The Hex

The Hex

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The Hex time line problems/general critique (UNMARKED SPOILERS)
I've recently watched a playthrough of the Hex, currently debating on whether or not to buy it since I did enjoy the story and what the developer is trying to do. I did however feel like the time line I built in my head from dialogue in the beginning and the official time line established by The Walk were very different. I will not claim that my view is objective but I do however feel the dialogue in the games before The Walk do not do a good enough job in letting the player piece together a proper timeline. This is meant both as an opener to discussion and something to help the devs im their future endeavors.

I also acknowledge that in a game such as this, there might be secrets and explanations I have missed.

So first let's establish the official time line of game releases as established by the game.

-Rootbeer Game
-Super Weasel Kid (SWK)
-Super Weasel Kid 2
-Gamefuna rereleases Super Weasel Kid 1 (maybe they also did 2 but who knows)
-Combat Arena X (CAX)
-Lionel immediately sells the rights to Combat Arena X to gamefuna, despite knowing how they handle games
-Secrets of Legendaria (SoL)
-Vicious Galaxy 1 (VG) (It was either in development concurrently with Waste World and finalized later later, or Lazarus' punishment occurs chronologically after Waste World)
-Waste World (WW)(unfinished of course)
-Vicious Galaxy 2 (The event's of Lazarus' flashback either took place before the proper release, making Lionel's lines about replacing the party apply to this game, or a possible Vicious Galaxy 3)
-The Walk (TW)

Now, I am going to lay out the time line of I thought of before seeing it layed out in The Walk.

-Unspecified game that Lionel made or someone else did that was then used as the base for Super Weasel Kid
-Super Weasel Kid
-Super Weasel Kid 2 is made soon after

Here's where my time line differs from the game, I assumed Gamefuna's rerelease came like, much later in Lionel's career. If I had to put it exactly I'd say I assumed it to be one of his latest releases.

-Lionel dips his hands into various different genres and games, some are hits, some are misses, but never making a genuine stinker. It helps that he has gained a kind of following due to making Super Weasel Kid so young and being seen as a young indie prodigy.

-Combat Arena X is made as Lionel's version of a mash up fighter ala Smash Bros. He uses characters from various IPs he created, often making characters that don't seem to fit correctly in a fighter. He's in his early-mid twenties now, still holding some nostalgia but also turning into a bit of a businessman in regard to games. Using the money he's gained over the years he buys the rights to Bryce, a character from one of his favorite childhood games but one that has not had an installment in years.

-Secrets of Legendaria is the latest installment in a long running RPG series similar to Legend of Zelda in execution. Chandrelle is the chosen hero reincarnated or otherwise sent to various times to seal the returning dark lord Vallamir with the three orbs. Lazarus may or may not also be a reoccurring character, hence the name. I imagined this series initial game would have been Lionel's other big hit after Super Weasel Kid 2, assuming there were no other sequels

-Vicious Galaxy is an oddly dark, gritty, and gory sci-fi game for Lionel's usual style. Maybe it's the style or maybe it's in some form of development hell to cause the game characters to shy away from the series. Chronologically it was either released or in development near SoL's release.

-Waste World is game made while Lionel turns into a much more cutthroat businessman/game dev. Considered the creator of several longrunning hit series like CAX and the SoL series he can get away with mediocre or even somewhat buggy games. His following has only gotten bigger and more fanatic as time went on, willing to overlook all but the most obvious cashgrabs as long as Lionel is behind it. It may or may not have gotten finished, but he had no pity for people taking advantage of the unfinished leaked game.

-At the height of his hubris he partners with Gamefuna, rereleasing Super Weasel Kid

And that's basically how I had it arranged in my head, until the final chapter of course. I'll explain my reasoning and how I think the game could have better alluded to the official time line as well.

I think it's reasonable for a first time player to assume that the SWK gamefuna rerelease was made a large stretch of time, more than ten years even, after the first two. SWK was shown explicitly to have been released on steam, rereleasing a game that was originally made on steam is somewhat rare. On review calls it a port which is even more baffling as that wouldn't be needed. A long time would have to pass with several sequels for a repackaging of any kind to be realistic. In this instance I don't think it's possible to have this seem realistic at all, rereleasing a game that's only six years old on the same damn platform is borderline unheard of. Simply putting the Gamefuna version later in the timeline would have smoothed out this somewhat immersion breaking part.

Similarly, CAX has many characters who felt like they were from other series or weren't made for a fighting game. That Chandrelle, Sado, and the Mechanic were made specifically for the game feels very weird, as I originally thought they were pulled from other series and IPs for this fighting game ala Smash or SoulCal. Chandrelle being sick of being in the game also made more sense from this point of view, as her tiredness now seems much more out of place as no other character seems to experience this in their native game, except perhaps First Person View, but Bryce, Weasel Kid, Reggie, the other fighters, and even RUST seemed content in their native games.

Minor note but a narrative problem seems to be that time doesn't move correctly in the dark area between games. Bryce is walking past a sign announcing his removal from CAX2 and then suddenly there's a page announcing CAX11, nine whole games after two.

Finding out SoL was the first installment in their cancelled series was... very jarring. As I said earlier, I was lead to believe that this was the latest installment in an ongoing cash cow RPG, and there's not much in the flashback proper to lead me to think otherwise. If she's in an ongiong series it makes sense that Chandrelle would be tired and would know how easy it would be to make sequels, and it would explain her familiarity with Lazarus and Vallamir. Having found out that the game was supposed to be the first, and Chandrelle was native to CAX I have to believe that all the tiredness, familiarity, and alluding to events was due to a long development. If this is so the game really needed to make it more clear. The statue in town square also doesn't make sense now, why would that be built there? Was a backstory similar to Link in LoZ supposed to be implied? Why do Chandrelle and Lazarus seem to know a lot about the game, yet not know the answers to the sphynx's questions OR the glitched ankh puzzle? I get it was to have the twitch part but you easily could have made a line about last second puzzle changes.

Chandrelle's tiredness again just makes no sense under the context presented by the game.

Remember when I mentioned the time problem? Well it comes up again. Lazarus says he has "heard bad things" about Vicious Galaxy, but according to The Walk VG was made after Waste World, so how could Lazarus have heard about it, much less be reassigned to it? I've thought of three possible solutions

A: Vicious Galaxy was a pet project of Lionel's for a while, was worked alongside SoL, and was only released finished after he stopped work on WW

B: Chronologically Chandrelle and Lazarus were only reprimanded after the WW fiasco. So VG was already in development

C: VG was released before WW but Lionel was so angry with the modding incident he breaks the timeline and touches upon WW before VG

Either of these could work, but the game should have alluded to a more solid explanation.

Waste World doesn't really break the timeline in any way, it can be put anywhere honestly. So instead I'll talk about Sado the clown's inclusion in this part. I feel like Sado's part in WW could have easily been replaced by Irving in this scenario, shutting down the mods and the game itself. There's no real reason Sado should even be here or target Rocky. It just seems like an oddly tragic thing to happen to Rust and it doesn't even give him a real motive against Lionel, because Lionel didn't take away Rocky, Sado did. I can't even tell if Rocky was part of the base game, or a very popular mod. Not knowing how much of WW is 'real' and how much is mods doesn't help either.

That's basically all I have to say about the timeline, but honestly the game world is inconsistent so I'll go on a little tangent.

-Does each character exist as a 'symbol' of all their other instances in the games or are they all single instances with hundreds of Weasel Kids, Chandrelles, and other characters living separate lives in their respective game instances?
-Why is Rust so cognitively different than the other characters? How come Chandrelle and Lazarus don't lose their memories upon a new game?
-Why re-use old characters from different genres instead of making new ones for the specific game?
-How are the NPCs any different from the characters in Six Point Inn? Why is Bryce banned from CAX2 for hitting granny when he is being scouted for... a fighting game. This is especially out of character for Irving considering what he's done.
-Why would Irving, who is in Lionel's copy of Gameworks, handle things for Gamefuna? Who would assumedly have their own instance of Irving?
-Why would that burrowing donkey guy appear in a game handled by Gamefuna, and then in games purely handled by Lionel?
-Does Lionel own the cooking granny series or just Bryce? If he owns Bryce shouldn't he have never been able to go back to cooking granny and just be shunted off into the void? Was he going to make another cooking granny game?
-If the NPC holding cells were storng enough to hold Sado, why didn't they imprison all the troublesome characters like Bryce, Chandrelle, and Vallamir? Lionel seems to imply he dislikes it when files are lost so Irving would have been incentivised to keep them locked up, instead of shunting them into the void.
-Why did mister shrew die if he was just a game character? Like seriously I can't think of why Lionel would kill him and it seems baffling that a game character could die of old age. The irl counterpart to him died yes, but Reggie was also based off of a real person who died.
-Shouldn't Sado have been contained in the NPC holding cells before WW? They have characters from CAX and SoL so why was she free in WW?
-Why was there a functional battle royale game in Lionel's copy of Gameworks that Sado teleports you to?
-How can a player even access the Six Point Inn?
-What the ♥♥♥♥ even is the hex?

Why is Sado even in the game? I was waiting for her to tie into the greater narrative but she doesn't. She's just there to be creepy and that's it. There's no other reason I can think of for her to be in the game. All her appearances could be replaced by Irving or a context specific character and nothing would be lost.

...Despite all this, I do like Daniel Mullin's work. The puzzles are clever, the secrets run deep, and the meta narrative gets interesting. That's why I'm taking the time to write this, I want these games to improve and become GREAT.

But the story surrounding those puzzles, secrets, and meta NEEDS to make sense. Otherwise it just feels like a shallow vessel for those things. Pony Island also suffered from the ending bits feeling somewhat out of place, and also kind of ripping off of Undertale, but I felt was otherwise a solid experience.

If I am making some points in error please correct me, otherwise this is my opinion on the game.
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Beiträge 16 von 6
It wasn't a re-release, it was a reboot. The '09 makes it clear this was the weasel kid version of Sonic '06.

Not really important, but SoL is more final fantasy than Zelda, hence Moogles and turn-based combat.

Combat Arena X seems to be more in the vein of street fighter, and Bryce making a guest appearance since Lionel loved the game he was from.

Showing that Combat Arena 11 came out is more to indicate time passing and that Bryce never returned to it. Also that it became a very successful series.

I think Chandrelle just wants to be in a good game, and isn't very impressed by Lionel's work. She also mentions Moji to Lazarus and how boring the tutorial is - running through the same awful grinding during the game's creation over and over ad nauseum probably didn't help her mood any.

That's Vicious Galaxy 2, in Walk. Did Lionel even have anything to do with vicious galaxy 1? You play what seems to be it, but it isn't. Entirely possible it was just by another developer altogether.

Regarding the questions, in order:

I think the characters are symbols.

Rust got hit with the mind control juice by Sado and messed up in general by her, thus his broken psyche. As for why he doesn't know he's in a game, not sure, but Reginald seems to find it unusual as well.

Don't know what you mean by this

Hurting NPCs who aren't meant to be in combat is against the rules. They're no different from the six pint inn characters.

Irving is helping Lionel. Presumably that involves working with Gamefuna to make things work.

Because he needed the work, I guess? The NPCs seem to get recycled between companies and games as needed. Also he's a rabbit.

He owns Bryce. I figure Bryce had gone back to the code of the original cooking mama, rather than a new game.

Because Sado is WAY more trouble than they are. They're pretty much harmless until they start working to use the hex. Sado starts destroying everything the instant she's freed.

We don't really know enough about NPCs to say.

I suspect the (fake) vicious galaxy gameplay happened before waste world. Or Sado was imprisoned sometime after that.

There wasn't. The gameworks is more the abstract concept of making games than an actual program.

By playing The Hex, of course.

Dunno.

Carla made her. And since Gameworks was most likely made by Lucifer from Pony Island, Sado is ever so slightly off.
Whoa, I will try to answer to all of this:

- Your chronology is mostly right, though SWK'09 is the 3rd game in the series. A horrible one, not made by Lionel himself.

Though, I will add that Vicious Galaxy is a mystery. It isn't really mentioned much. There are indeed mentions of the game in SoL yet isn't mentioned in Walk. Still, the reassignment doesn't mean that the game was going to be made right away. After SoL, Lionel went on his own and made Waste World out of his possible ideas... and then what? We don't know anything other than he then made VG2 and Walk, this one already partnered with Gamefuna.

In my opinion, after the disaster of Waste World, Lionel found himself searching for a way to survive and get money and started working with Gamefuna himself and made Vicious Galaxy 1, after all a FPS tends to be considered the most revenue attracting genre since quite some time. And (the real) VG2 would be no difference and be made too with Gamefuna and then Walk.

Lionel might not have wanted to make Vicious Galaxy at that time over Waste World due to some sort of "pride" and making a game that he "wanted" to make on that mental state. Which would add to how he lashed to fans for tampering with "his" game. The game itself reflects on someone walking alone with his "son" searching for a "cache" to live comfortable all life. After some kind of apocalypse event.

Also, the "ashes" come from the Rootbear game. Lionel wanted this.

- Lionel indeed mentions that he only released SWK and then SWK2. He didn't do so, as mentioned in Walk, out of fear of not being recognized as a "prodigy". Anything he might have thought of, only Irving knows. Which relates with the next point, Combat Arena's characters are just models created/spawned by him/Irving. His only IP was SWK... and that was sold.

- Secrets of Legendaria only was one game, sabotaged by inner disputes in the team with Lionel. In fact, Chandrelle herself says that it could be a franchise that could go for many sequels but prefers to give a try to the unknown.

- Waste World's events are Lionel going solo, being increasingly desperate and losing his head. And his old team not forgiving him for closing his studio. Lashing to fans didn't help either.

- Even if wrote it beforehand, I will remark: Lionel sold SWK's rights to Gamefuna, got money for it, opened his studio, blew it and then desperate joined with Gamefuna, as you mention then.

- There isn't a "time" problem with Bryce, really. His role ends and then he goes to the Tavern after being literally lost to time, wandering without purpose.

- About SoL's lore... it's, well, lore. If you notice, every character has a programming, a role to play and memories being their backstory. That's not any different for Chandrelle or Lazarus. Many RPGs might have a first installment refering to previous sealings of evil entities and so Lionel/Irving/Carla and the rest of the team added that.

And after what I clarified before, it would result in option A.

- Rocky's demise in the hands of Sado is a consequence on Carla's hate towards Lionel and wanting to disrupt his "baby project". Sado came back into Gameworks with the "Boss Rush" mod and, pointed by Jeremiah, which they might be old partners even both being errors, lashed at Rust and Rocky.

Now for the machine gun clarification of listed questions:
1. Characters in The Hex are the "original files" and not mere Irving spawned copies. Lionel mentions this with SWK in The Walk. It also fits with Bruce.
2. Like, cognitively different as in traumatized by going through an absolute nightmare scenario and having his own programming tampered by Sado and Jeremiah? Yes.
3. Because Lionel is incredibly passionate and, as well, incredibly lazy.
4. Different degrees of programming. The Gameworks package allows for some... incredible things to appear, as well as more exotic ones in the case of "errors". Also:
5. Irving is the boss of Gameworks and spawns creatures like nothing. He also is shown that he can isolate areas like when he tries to take back to its intended programming SoL. What this means is: The Cooking comeback for Bruce was just Irving storing Bruce away after his role in CAX ended in "the Gameworks". What does this have to do with Gamefuna? Well, if you see at the intended end of Walk, it's made with Gameworks. So the Gameworks package might have been a Gamefuna suit all along.
6. Which would explain why Mr. Squarrel appears both in SWK'09 and SoL. Irving has constant connection with Gamefuna.
7. As mentioned in 5, that was Irving's way of keeping Bruce "busy". Also, if Irving has constant connection with Gamefuna, well, perhaps the cooking game... was from Gamefuna too.
8. The void and wandering around it is a good enough way seemingly for Irving. Sado is (in) a special case due to her being Carla's creation and extremely anti-Lionel. Irving can find them anytime, anywhere, if requested for or suspicious.
9. Lionel being sentimental by then. And it got applied that to his ingame counterpart. Rootbear's was supposedly "turned to ashes" but wasn't in the end.
10. As said before, Sado was Carla's creation, so after the studio dissolved she kept the rights, which meant Sado wasn't back until she came back with Carla's Boss Rush mod.
11. That's Sado messing with you and Lazarus. And a quite fun one at that.
12. A player? Us? Well, we bought the game, so we got there ;) If you mean the player characters though, that's Jeremiah gathering them under Reggie.
13. A programmed ritual. Like, you know, Pony Island's soul gathering ones.

Sado's intiial, intended programming is just to be Carla's creation using all of Gameworks' potential as a fighting game character. The result, most likely unintended, is a character that creates errors and disrupts as much as she's allowed to AND enjoying her own kind of "life". We don't really know how truly loyal to Carla she is, though, as she IS her creator but... she does target Rust and Rocky as soon as possible when back through the Boss Rush mod.

Mind you that she doesn't necessarily search for pure violence though, she just has a creepy vibe to annoy/disrupt you. Even if you fail in CAX's fight, she just toys with you and allows you to come back as much as you want to. The only one she killed, erased, removed, was Rocky under most likely Carla's explicit command. Sado's parts are even the most entertaining ones gameplay wise, if you think about it.

I... think that's all?
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Aumires; 7. Dez. 2018 um 13:11
So, it's almost literally blink-and-you'll-miss-it, but there actually is an explanation for Vicious Galaxy. Lionel didn't make it. Vicious Galaxy was made by Gamefauna, and came out before Secrets of Legendaria (hence why Lazarus has heard of it).

There are two clues that put this together. During Walk, when you pop back into the Vicious Galaxy world, Lionel is just finishing a story about how he contributed to Vicious Galaxy II. Later in Walk, if you go through the light door rather than doubling back to find the PC, you see the credits of Walk, which show it was made by Gamefauna with Lionel as director. Filling in the blanks a little, once Lionel gave up on Waste World he went to work at Gamefauna and was a programmer on Vicious Galaxy II, working his way up the ranks until he could get his passion project made.

To make things even crazier, when Irving drops the charade of the Vicious Galaxy level in the Gameworks office, he mentions that the player had been tricked into thinking they were playing "Vicious Galaxy III." So, there's actually two Vicious Galaxy games we never see. There's one game that came out completely independently of Lionel, a sequel that Lionel worked on (and Lazarus was transfered to), and an ostensible third one which probably doesn't exist and was just a trick played by the characters.

EDIT: A few more things...

-Characters definitely seem to inherit traits from whoever created them, so it's possible that Chandrelle's exhaustion with her game despite it being new has more to do the exhaustion of the people who made it. Alternately, remember that even if the game is new, a game that complicated would have to be HEAVILY playtested prior to release. It may be launch day, but Chandrelle's already been through this thing a thousand times.

-The only reason I can think that Rust wouldn't understand he's a video game character is because his game wasn't finished. Like, HE isn't complete yet. He's more an idea of character than a full character at this point, so he's not fully aware.

-Regarding multiple "instances" of Irving, I think Irving is just Irving. He's the "spirit" of the Gameworks engine. If you want to put it in more technical terms, Irving is in the cloud and connected to all instances of the Gameworks development tool.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Rocketlex; 8. Dez. 2018 um 23:39
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rocketlex:
So, it's almost literally blink-and-you'll-miss-it, but there actually is an explanation for Vicious Galaxy. Lionel didn't make it. Vicious Galaxy was made by Gamefauna, and came out before Secrets of Legendaria (hence why Lazarus has heard of it).

There are two clues that put this together. During Walk, when you pop back into the Vicious Galaxy world, Lionel is just finishing a story about how he contributed to Vicious Galaxy II. Later in Walk, if you go through the light door rather than doubling back to find the PC, you see the credits of Walk, which show it was made by Gamefauna with Lionel as director. Filling in the blanks a little, once Lionel gave up on Waste World he went to work at Gamefauna and was a programmer on Vicious Galaxy II, working his way up the ranks until he could get his passion project made.

To make things even crazier, when Irving drops the charade of the Vicious Galaxy level in the Gameworks office, he mentions that the player had been tricked into thinking they were playing "Vicious Galaxy III." So, there's actually two Vicious Galaxy games we never see. There's one game that came out completely independently of Lionel, a sequel that Lionel worked on (and Lazarus was transfered to), and an ostensible third one which probably doesn't exist and was just a trick played by the characters.

EDIT: A few more things...

-Characters definitely seem to inherit traits from whoever created them, so it's possible that Chandrelle's exhaustion with her game despite it being new has more to do the exhaustion of the people who made it. Alternately, remember that even if the game is new, a game that complicated would have to be HEAVILY playtested prior to release. It may be launch day, but Chandrelle's already been through this thing a thousand times.

-The only reason I can think that Rust wouldn't understand he's a video game character is because his game wasn't finished. Like, HE isn't complete yet. He's more an idea of character than a full character at this point, so he's not fully aware.

-Regarding multiple "instances" of Irving, I think Irving is just Irving. He's the "spirit" of the Gameworks engine. If you want to put it in more technical terms, Irving is in the cloud and connected to all instances of the Gameworks development tool.

I didn't know about the Vicious Galaxy thing but that opens up another problem, Irving shouldn't be able to reassign characters from SoL to Vicious Galaxy if it was not made by Lionel. Admittedly it's very possible Lionel sold the rights of the existing characters to Gamefuna since he and Gamefuna seem to have a good relationship where buying off IPs is concerned. However there's nothing to really imply this happened and if Lionel admitted to taking the stipends and running then I doubt he'd omit also selling off the SoL characters. So either Lionel sold the characters off and never mentioned it, the SoL characters transferred to VG were originally stock characters from Gameworks and not original, he did in fact work on VG but never mentioned it, or Irving can bypass copyright law which I hope is not the actual explanation.

Your Irving explanation also has problems, we don't know much about gameworks as a program but there is nothing in the game to imply that it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ program, and in fact seems to be well regarded as a game dev tool. This in turn would make the Gameworks HQ bit make less sense, as all the characters are associated heavily with Lionel's work. It makes more sense that the instances of Gameworks we interact with are Lionel's version, but Irving oversteps that too much to make sense.
Yeah, for sure an assistant that can just spawn characters, talk in an advanced AI manner back then, from a company which CEO is called "Lou Natas" which last game had Pony Island esque interface and a crash when setting 666 isn't suspicious at all. Also the Gameworks own version.

Also the VG2 section was an attack to erase his files while seeking for The Artifact to open The Hex. A programmed ritual. That somehow Gameworks had stored.
Ursprünglich geschrieben von xward555:
Your Irving explanation also has problems, we don't know much about gameworks as a program but there is nothing in the game to imply that it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ program, and in fact seems to be well regarded as a game dev tool. This in turn would make the Gameworks HQ bit make less sense, as all the characters are associated heavily with Lionel's work. It makes more sense that the instances of Gameworks we interact with are Lionel's version, but Irving oversteps that too much to make sense.

That actually ties into another theory of mine.

During the Root Beer Reggie game, you'll notice that the patrons you're serving are Groondas and Moglees. That's a little strange given the timeline, right? Groondas make sense as platform enemies and Moglee's make sense as fantasy NPCs, but why would Lionel create both of these things for a root beer game? It's his very first game before he'd even have the idea for Super Weasel Kid or Secrets of Legendaria.

Because Lionel DIDN'T create them. Moglees and Groondas are "stock assets" that come with the Gameworks development tool. This is why, during the shootout in the Gameworks HQ, it's called out specifically that you've been shooting Groondas, Moglees and "a handful of Steambots" (which, given how weirdly often Steambot Willie shows up for cameos, I have a feeling are also stock assets). They're not Lionel's creations, but rather the "employees" of the engine itself.

It makes a lot of sense that a hobbyist developer would use stock assets when creating his first few games. (It's a little less excusable that Lionel would use them in Secrets of Legendaria, a game which ostensibly had an art team behind it, but maybe that's more of an easter egg Lionel threw in to remember his humble beginnings.)
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