1-A dashless (spoilers)

[Frank Exchange Of Views]

lmfao just had to vent, so I just discovered spike jumps (on that room, you know the one). The thing is, I knew spike jumps were a thing but had never learned them before, but I psyched myself into about 300 deaths on this one jump alone because I opened a second save file and practised it with assist mode game speed set to 50% and it turns out it is a make-able jump from a stationary grabbing position, you just have to be hyper-precise about your inputs.

So then I went ahead and smashed my face into it hundreds of times, always from a stationary ledge grabbing position. Eventually I did the right thing (take a run at it from the upper platform), not expecting it to work or anything, just doing different inputs to keep it from feeling too repetitive, and got it first try. Damn, doing the real spike jump was way, waaaay easier than just trying to force the inputs on the stationary jump at 100% speed!

[Clantis]

i think you're talking about crossing-1?

i do want to mention that dashless 1a is entirely possible, even a few berries are.
also, you should do it from the start in one session :)

[Frank Exchange Of Views]

I am doing it from the start, though I've paused it a few times and come back, and I've also restarted it and redone up to the current screen several times. Believe me, I'm zero per cent the person to concern himself about finding an easier way to do something; I'm the person who gets to the end of a super hard screen and throws himself in a pit because it looks like it could have been a secret. You should see my death count. lol!

[Renfrew]

This is Celeste's most disappointing challenge for me. Essentially you have to abuse a feature, instead of there being an interesting route to get through dashless.

Edit:
Unsubbed, it is clear that I made the mistake of choosing a place that circle-jerks Celeste to complain about a flaw within Celeste, so I am just being met with trolling and repeated arguments. I'm done with this community, just sticking to playing the game.

[Frank Exchange Of Views]

引用自 Renfrew：

This is Celeste's most disappointing challenge for me. Essentially you have to abuse a feature, instead of there being an interesting route to get through dashless.

Honestly not sure I agree. What exactly is the difference between abusing a feature and using it? As for finding interesting routes, the routes through at least some of the levels so far are substantially different. I'm currently on the screen where you have to cross the gap by spike jumping off the horizontal wall to get the extra distance. That's a non-obvious thing to have to intuit just from looking at the level, and doing this challenge requires rethinking how you approach the jump and wall grab mechanics.

Arguably any of the advanced movement techniques they teach you in the C-sides or Farewell, and even some of the B-sides, are exactly the same process: here's a thing that looks impossible with the skills you've likely used so far, here's a new skill that makes it possible, now re-conceptualise the way you're going to move through this space.

I suppose if I wanted to do a lazy argument I might say, that this is a challenge which the devs added after the fact when they realised it was already technically possible in this chapter alone (which is the case as far as I know), so maybe the screens weren't directly designed to expand your mind about it as much as those of the later chapter's advanced tech introductions were, but I don't feel like I really need to make that argument. After all I'm only ... six, seven screens in(?) and the dashless has already taught me spike jumping and neutral jumping, which I'd heard of but never tried before now, and you can see interesting uses for these all over other chapters.

[Renfrew]

If you enjoy trial and error for half an hour, good for you. There's nothing interesting about knowing exactly what to do, but dying because you don't have the practice to execute the tech properly, since it is literally not needed anywhere else in the entire game. Spike jumping does not even compare to other parts of the moveset, because it only exists for dashless, you aren't explicitly taught it (ergo some people don't even know a dashless berry exists) and since you will be using dashes through the rest of the game, it doesn't even build upon what you already know unlike wall bounces, hypers and wave dashes.

Spike jumping is for speedrunners who will practice for hours of their life to make sure their execution is perfect and saves every last second. Knowing that it exists is useless outside of that as it isn't even needed, and harder chapters are unforgiving, because a spike jump won't save you if you screw up. Most screens will have one safe spot to stand in, as soon as you leave it you are either surrounded by spikes or there is a massive abyss, until you reach the other side.

Neutral jumps are for saving yourself when you are low on stamina and are not required anywhere in the game, not even dashless...

You don't need to make any arguments at all, you clearly aren't going to convince me, especially not with such weak reasoning.

[コトラ]

Neutral jumps are quite useful for a lot of the game, especially when doing Goldens, since you'll want to abuse any feature that might save you.

A lot of Celeste involves already knowing what to do while having to learn some specific mechanics in each screen in order to succeed (such as the nuances of how Bumpers or the Core blocks work; most C-Sides are also extremely straightforward in the way they're designed and the challenge comes from perfecting the technique to clear those screens).

[Renfrew]

引用自 コトラ：

Neutral jumps are quite useful for a lot of the game, especially when doing Goldens, since you'll want to abuse any feature that might save you.

If you now how to do a screen you already know that neutral jumps are not necessary, therefore defeating the purpose of integrating them into your strategy. As for the mythical "save", have you actually tried goldens? I am at 199/202 have never used neutral jumps for a single golden and there was never an instance where a neutral jump would have saved me. The obvious reason for that is I already know how to save stamina, because of how many times I have practiced a screen, therefore precise execution is actually the main factor at play. Practicing neutral jumps (which again are not needed even for dashless) is practicing for failure, when you could spend that time actually being better at a screen that you are struggling with.

引用自 コトラ：

A lot of Celeste involves already knowing what to do while having to learn some specific mechanics in each screen in order to succeed (such as the nuances of how Bumpers or the Core blocks work

You seem to have ignored, that I also pointed out that this tech is not needed anywhere else in the game, and you are essentially only learning it for this one challenge. This means that unlike your Core example, you won't be able to apply that knowledge elsewhere for a meaningful purpose. I already pointed out how this tech will not be integrated into your regular moveset unlike wall bounces, hypers and wave dashing. Where are spike jumps and neutral jumps integrated?

引用自 コトラ：

most C-Sides are also extremely straightforward in the way they're designed and the challenge comes from perfecting the technique to clear those screens).

You also seemed to have misunderstood my point about harder chapters as I never disputed what you are saying, I did however specify that there isn't an instance where this tech can be integrated for the purposes of saving your run, when you are surrounded by spikes and have a massive abyss beneath you, if you screw up your golden run is over, so where are you using this tech that is geared towards speedrunners for shaving seconds off of world records? So when you said earlier that this tech "might save you", that is probably the biggest stretch in your reasoning.

[Perseus]

引用自 Renfrew：

You don't need to make any arguments at all, you clearly aren't going to convince me,

This part makes you sound... arrogant? like you won't accept the possibility of being wrong, i don't know. You might want to change it?

引用自 Renfrew：

especially not with such weak reasoning.

You seriously didn't need to write that. It's needlessly aggressive.

引用自 Renfrew：

If you now how to do a screen you already know that neutral jumps are not necessary, therefore defeating the purpose of integrating them into your strategy.
As for the mythical "save", have you actually tried goldens? I am at 199/202 have never used neutral jumps for a single golden and there was never an instance where a neutral jump would have saved me.

The fact that you don't think you've ever encountered such an instance doesn't mean it doesn't doesn't happen. Maybe your strategy for going about clearing them is one that happens to remove the possibility of such opportunities.

引用自 Renfrew：

The obvious reason for that is I already know how to save stamina, because of how many times I have practiced a screen, therefore precise execution is actually the main factor at play.

This part suggests that you have such a strategy. Is said strategy to go about them like it's sort of a speedrun, in a sense?

引用自 Renfrew：

Practicing neutral jumps (which again are not needed even for dashless) is practicing for failure,

Aren't they required for dashless, for the last room? Or am i just misremembering?
In any case, learning them has been quite useful to me, including for playing the Spring Collab 2020 mod (and not just for the times where they are required, but also to save myself, or even to take some sort of breather in some of the longer screens).
Also, why are you saying it's "practicing for failure" when you also say that neutral walljumps can't be used to save yourself?

引用自 Renfrew：

when you could spend that time actually being better at a screen that you are struggling with.

You say that in a way that implies training for levels and training for neutral walljumps are mutually exclusive things, but they're not.

[Renfrew]

引用自 Perseus：

This part makes you sound... arrogant? like you won't accept the possibility of being wrong, i don't know. You might want to change it?

I am allowed an opinion, the mere aspect that your ideologies are being threatened, is causing you to try and silence me on that premise now THAT is very wrong and arrogant. Lack of self-awareness much? This is the problem with communities; the status quo is challenged, and you immediately resort to being defensive and playing the victim card, despite there being no justification for that.

引用自 Perseus：

You seriously didn't need to write that. It's needlessly aggressive.

It's the truth, they have not provided sufficient reasoning, and for that matter neither have you. Making a statement is not aggressive, don't get into a debate if you are too thin-skinned to handle your ideas being criticised and thoroughly deconstructed. Skip the white knighting spiel and try to have a discussion?

引用自 Perseus：

The fact that you don't think you've ever encountered such an instance doesn't mean it doesn't doesn't happen.

You provide no examples, and do nothing to support your claim. If you can't show beyond "maybe they do exist", then that's not proof at all, but I digress I already pointed this out in this thread.

引用自 Perseus：

Maybe your strategy for going about clearing them is one that happens to remove the possibility of such opportunities.

Furthermore this is objectively wrong. I've already pointed out in this thread I am at 199/202, so unlike your "maybe"s I actually have the experience. Once you have that much practice with screens all errors, will become execution errors as harder chapters are more precise. Furthermore, I explained in this thread how harder levels often go through entire screens before you get to a safe spot and at no point can these tech save you, because there is nothing to jump on to. Neutral jumping is a stall until death because of the lack of safe spots to take advantage of to recharge your dashes, and spike jumping is suicidal. This isn't 1A where you can spike jump and neutral jump anywhere, and deathless is not difficult enough to even warrant practicing such saves. Do you not see the blatant paradox of saying this tech is useful? It can only be used in levels that are so easy that knowing how to do the tech in the first place is redundant, as the "regular" method is easier...

引用自 Perseus：

This part suggests that you have such a strategy. Is said strategy to go about them like it's sort of a speedrun, in a sense?

I don't need to speedrun, what part of the vanilla game screens can be completed normally and more importantly safely without requiring spike jumps or neutral jumps, isn't clear enough?

引用自 Perseus：

Aren't they required for dashless, for the last room? Or am i just misremembering?
In any case, learning them has been quite useful to me, including for playing the Spring Collab 2020 mod (and not just for the times where they are required, but also to save myself, or even to take some sort of breather in some of the longer screens).

1A Dashless is a memory that my mind subdues, because of how terrible it is. That said if that is the case you spend time learning tech to clear one part of one screen? And never use it again? Great reasoning, all you have done is demonstrated I remembered something incorrectly (I cannot be bothered to verify, so I will take your word for it), it still doesn't excuse all the flaws I have pointed out about neutral jumps, far from it, it still puts it in the same vein as spike jumps where you aren't using it outside of 1A dashless.

When did I ask about mods? Vanilla Celeste, which is what is played by the overwhelming majority of people, is clearly the topic of discussion here. Introducing mods into the equation instead of putting everyone on the same level, makes no sense. When am I ever gonna play mods? When are the people who own Celeste on console? When are the people who don't care about Celeste enough to even play past 7A? The list goes on. Mods are niche, and irrelevant to this discussion. I can make a mod make use of tech that is completely useless like how spikes on top of lava blocks don't appear for a few frames after a lava block respawns and require you to wave dash off of it in a mod. There is no instance in the vanilla game where you should do this not even in a speedrun.

引用自 Perseus：

Also, why are you saying it's "practicing for failure" when you also say that neutral walljumps can't be used to save yourself?

Ah yes, this is also expected from a defensive stance take something out of context, in an attempt to make it seem like a contradiction. YOU GUYS are saying that neutral jumps can save you, not me. I was responding to someone, and as such I was challenging their claim, by pointing out the obvious question raised , which is: why practice that, when you can practice getting better at the screen you are struggling with? You know the other half of that sentence that you conveniently left out?

引用自 Perseus：

You say that in a way that implies training for levels and training for neutral walljumps are mutually exclusive things, but they're not.

Except they are not required or necessary? This has already been pointed out extensively, and you have no argument disproving that beyond "MAYBE you'll use it, IDK".

So overall, the actual arrogant one is you by trying to silence my personal opinion, on the premise that I am being offensive, just because I dare to challenge the circle-jerk and thoroughly explain my position. Resorting to accusations of "ad hominem" is a petty cop out, thanks for the laugh. That aside, you have no evidence to support your claims, just supposition. You don't address points I've made already in this thread, so essentially I am repeating what I have already discussed.

[Frank Exchange Of Views]

引用自 Renfrew：

If you enjoy trial and error for half an hour, good for you. There's nothing interesting about knowing exactly what to do, but dying because you don't have the practice to execute the tech properly, since it is literally not needed anywhere else in the entire game.

I mean I guess this is kind of the crux of the discussion. Lots of things aren't needed to succeed at various screens, but it's fun still to practice and use them. You can easily pass all the screens up until Core-C without using wave dashes, they're not required anywhere before that (unless you want to find the TowerFall easter egg in Reflections-A), but I guess I just find it fun to learn new techniques and then go back and think of ways I can put them to use in other levels, even if they aren't absolutely necessary there. There's loads of stuff in earlier chapters that can be done in a faster or more entertaining way by utilising wall bounces and wave dashes, etc., so it's fun to go back and redo them once you know these things are possible.

And you can definitely at least use these dashless techniques in some other places, for example, use neutral jumping to get to the crystal heart chamber in Reflections-A faster than by taking the feathers; once I figured it out on 1-A, I immediately quit and went back to Reflections and tried it out. And there's loads of situations where the game throws spike walls/floors at you (obviously! lol), knowing now that I have the ability to sproing off the edge of one and still be safe, rather than needing to fully avoid any contact, sounds like it'll come in handy all over, even if you can still just avoid the spikes to get the same result. Maybe that's not valuable to you, but it's valuable to me.

I think maybe it's just that you and I get satisfaction from somewhat different aspects of the game? It's not that I find trial and error itself to be enjoyable, I just don't mind (or get frustrated by) doing things over and over if I feel like I'm progressing with a goal I set for myself. It's why I rack up so many deaths during normal playthroughs; if it looks like there's a faster, or more unusual, or more interesting way to do the level, or potentially a secret path leading off somewhere, I get a lot of enjoyment from setting myself the goal to trying it that way, even if there's an easier or safer way to do it.

Similarly, for the dashless, not every screen so far has been substantively different, but several of the screens have had me going like "oh dang, hmm, now how am I gonna accomplish this?" Then I get to practice and mess around and figure it out, and not only do I enjoy that aspect of it, but it automatically gets me thinking about redoing other chapters to look for skips and saves based on these techniques.

Obviously it would be wrong of me to tell you that you're enjoying the game wrong if you just found it to be a slog and never used any of the techniques gain or anything, and I don't mean to imply I think that at all. I just don't see it as being all that different from any other point where the game teaches you something new and then you can go back and use it if you want to in other chapters. I guess I should have phrased what I said differently, I didn't mean it to come across like "no you're wrong about this!", I just meant I'm having a really good time with it so far, and it seems like it's gonna be useful to me. Serves me right: on the internet no one can hear your tone!

[Perseus]

引用自 Renfrew：

I am allowed an opinion, the mere aspect that your ideologies are being threatened, is causing you to try and silence me on that premise now THAT is very wrong and arrogant. Lack of self-awareness much? This is the problem with communities; the status quo is challenged, and you immediately resort to being defensive and playing the victim card, despite there being no justification for that.

What are you even talking about? I merely said that a phrasing of yours could give a bad impression of you. How is that even close to what you're saying it was? Even allowing for maximum miscommunication i can't figure out what the "victim card" part comes from.

引用自 Renfrew：

It's the truth, they have not provided sufficient reasoning, and for that matter neither have you. Making a statement is not aggressive, don't get into a debate if you are too thin-skinned to handle your ideas being criticised and thoroughly deconstructed. Skip the white knighting spiel and try to have a discussion?[/quote]
I don't see a problem with ideas being criticized, but i do see one with not trying to be diplomatic in said criticism.

引用自 Renfrew：

You provide no examples, and do nothing to support your claim. If you can't show beyond "maybe they do exist", then that's not proof at all, but I digress I already pointed this out in this thread.

The point wasn't that it was a proof they existed, it was that you don't have a proof they don't exist.

I haven't played the regular game in a while, especially not for golden berries, but I did remember an example after making my previous post : In chapter 9, there's a room with ice walls you're supposed to dashboost(or whatever the name is) off of. Every time i fail that part i can just neutral walljump and survive easily. I might be misremembering, though. What i am sure of, however, is that my most consistent, safest method of going through that room uses neutral walljumps.

There's also that one room in Core-A in which i used neutral walljumping off of the lava blocking the end of the room to hit a switch i had missed and save myself.

引用自 Renfrew：

Furthermore this is objectively wrong. I've already pointed out in this thread I am at 199/202, so unlike your "maybe"s I actually have the experience.

That wasn't my point. Your number of strawberries means nothing of your strategy for collecting the golden ones. You and i could have very different strategies.

引用自 Renfrew：

and spike jumping is suicidal.

Unrelated to the argument, but i did use spike jumps to save attempts, although i'm not sure where or whether it was in mods.

引用自 Renfrew：

This isn't 1A where you can spike jump and neutral jump anywhere, and deathless is not difficult enough to even warrant practicing such saves. Do you not see the blatant paradox of saying this tech is useful? It can only be used in levels that are so easy that knowing how to do the tech in the first place is redundant, as the "regular" method is easier...

A lot of the A-sides have spots were such strategies can be used to save yourself, (as do some of the B-sides, although that's more rare) and because of how long the A-sides are, saving one attempt can save a relatively big amount of time. By the way, i never said that this tech was incredibly useful for the official Celeste levels, just that it has its uses.

引用自 Renfrew：

I don't need to speedrun, what part of the vanilla game screens can be completed normally and more importantly safely without requiring spike jumps or neutral jumps, isn't clear enough?

That wasn't my question, and i don't think i understand yours : What do you mean by "isn't clear enough"?

引用自 Renfrew：

1A Dashless is a memory that my mind subdues, because of how terrible it is. That said if that is the case you spend time learning tech to clear one part of one screen? And never use it again? Great reasoning, all you have done is demonstrated I remembered something incorrectly (I cannot be bothered to verify, so I will take your word for it), it still doesn't excuse all the flaws I have pointed out about neutral jumps, far from it, it still puts it in the same vein as spike jumps where you aren't using it outside of 1A dashless.

I wasn't trying to demonstrate anything with that sentence, i was just mentioning that i thought it required neutral walljumps.

引用自 Renfrew：

When did I ask about mods? Vanilla Celeste, which is what is played by the overwhelming majority of people, is clearly the topic of discussion here. Introducing mods into the equation instead of putting everyone on the same level, makes no sense. When am I ever gonna play mods? When are the people who own Celeste on console? When are the people who don't care about Celeste enough to even play past 7A? The list goes on. Mods are niche, and irrelevant to this discussion. I can make a mod make use of tech that is completely useless like how spikes on top of lava blocks don't appear for a few frames after a lava block respawns and require you to wave dash off of it in a mod. There is no instance in the vanilla game where you should do this not even in a speedrun.

Again, i was just mentioning something, specifically that in addition to being useful in the vanilla Celeste levels, neutral walljumping had also been useful to me in mods.
Sorry for being unclear about that.
(It's been so long since i played regular Celeste and not Spring Collab or regular Celeste but with extended variant changing things that make neutral walljumping completely useless, like no air friction, that i have trouble remembering the specific parts of the game i used neutral walljumps for.)

引用自 Renfrew：

Ah yes, this is also expected from a defensive stance take something out of context, in an attempt to make it seem like a contradiction. YOU GUYS are saying that neutral jumps can save you, not me. I was responding to someone, and as such I was challenging their claim, by pointing out the obvious question raised , which is: why practice that, when you can practice getting better at the screen you are struggling with? You know the other half of that sentence that you conveniently left out?

You were being unclear here, and i thought i would ask why you said two seemingly incompatible things.
(I left out the other part of the sentence not because it was convenient for whatever argument you thought i was making, but because it's a bit faster to just click the quote button once and then separating each part with a copy/paste of "/quote"and its "opposite" (neither of which the noparse tag seems to work on), which also why the next quote didn't have the first part in it.)

引用自 Renfrew：

Except they are not required or necessary? This has already been pointed out extensively, and you have no argument disproving that beyond "MAYBE you'll use it, IDK".

You've already said that several times (and you've also explained why later), but here i don't think it's relevant to what i was saying?

引用自 Renfrew：

So overall, the actual arrogant one is you by trying to silence my personal opinion,

Again, i wasn't saying you were arrogant. "Arrogant" (which i put between three dots and a question mark to try to indicate i wasn't sure it was the right word) was just the only word that came to my mind (and i'm not good at finding words) when trying to describe how one of your sentences could be interpreted.

引用自 Renfrew：

trying to silence my personal opinion, on the premise that I am being offensive,

I am not trying to silence your opinion, and the part you mention was just me attempting to say you could try to be more diplomatic (which has had the opposite effect, apparently, but hopefully it's only due to miscommunication).

引用自 Renfrew：

Resorting to accusations of "ad hominem" is a petty cop out, thanks for the laugh.

Pointing out Ad Hominems is a valid thing to do, but i think that's besides the point, as i don't think you've made any. The first part where you were undiplomatic was something else that i don't know an "official" term for like i do for Ad Hominem.

引用自 Renfrew：

You don't address points I've made already in this thread, so essentially I am repeating what I have already discussed.

If you're referencing the parts of your previous posts i didn't quote, either i agreed with some of them, or didn't think they were worth discussing as they were too "opinion-y", if you see what i mean (although you probably don't, because i'm not being very clear about that, and don't know how to be clearer).

[Renfrew]

引用自 Frank Exchange Of Views：

And you can definitely at least use these dashless techniques in some other places, for example, use neutral jumping to get to the crystal heart chamber in Reflections-A faster than by taking the feathers; once I figured it out on 1-A, I immediately quit and went back to Reflections and tried it out.

So it lets you do stuff faster, so the tech is for speedrunners? Hmmm, I could have sworn I already said that the tech was designed with speedrunners in mind. In fact I am going to one up that previous statement and point out that interviews the devs have gone in-depth about design choices, and how the idea is to make the game slightly more forgiving for casuals, but give lots of options to speedrunners, for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yorTG9at90g
Some parts of the video are from the devs themselves, especially parts like 11:12 where they specifically talk about pro vs casual players. This same video also talks about how some advance movement but not all are taught to the player, once again emphasising that line between casual and pro players, as well as what is and isn't necessary to beat the game.

I am confused how me pointing out the flaws of 1A Dashless suddenly means I don't enjoy Celeste as a whole? That was a weird ramble, that I don't think is relevant, so not going to address because it's not true and is based on assumption.

The rest is stuff I have already addressed, so not doing that again. Read my previous comments that break it down. Particularly those that point out why spike jumps and neutral jumps don't work in harder chapters where you would expect them to do the most "saving" and how easier chapters are already too easy for you to ever be in a position to use that.

[Renfrew]

@Perseus This is already too long, I am just blocking you, so I don't have to read your comments anymore. Have a nice life, I am glad I won't have the displeasure of dealing with you again. I blame myself choosing the Celeste forum to complain about an aspect of Celeste? Of course I am going to be met with an insufferable circle-jerk. Enjoy believing this game is literally perfect, I cannot deal with this time-wasting anymore.

引用自 Perseus：

What are you even talking about? I merely said that a phrasing of yours could give a bad impression of you. How is that even close to what you're saying it was? Even allowing for maximum miscommunication i can't figure out what the "victim card" part comes from.

Says YOU and nobody else. Frankly I don't know you and I don't care to know you, the only impression I have on you is that you are someone who white knights and can't handle the status quo being challenged. I am here to discuss, I already have an extremely negative impression of you, so if you want to go there, there's some reality for you.

引用自 Perseus：

I don't see a problem with ideas being criticized, but i do see one with not trying to be diplomatic in said criticism.

Ah yes "rules for thee but not for me".

引用自 Perseus：

The point wasn't that it was a proof they existed, it was that you don't have a proof they don't exist.

I haven't played the regular game in a while, especially not for golden berries, but I did remember an example after making my previous post : In chapter 9, there's a room with ice walls you're supposed to dashboost(or whatever the name is) off of. Every time i fail that part i can just neutral walljump and survive easily. I might be misremembering, though. What i am sure of, however, is that my most consistent, safest method of going through that room uses neutral walljumps.

A "maybe" within a "maybe", that's funny

引用自 Perseus：

There's also that one room in Core-A in which i used neutral walljumping off of the lava blocking the end of the room to hit a switch i had missed and save myself.

8A is your definition of difficult? It doesn't even compare to most of the B sides.

引用自 Perseus：

That wasn't my point. Your number of strawberries means nothing of your strategy for collecting the golden ones. You and i could have very different strategies.

Your point is all over the place, I only address what you write. Make your points clearer instead of this defensiveness. How can we have very different strategies? Do you know how precise later difficulties get? At that point in the game optimisations matter more than anything else, completing a screen optimally = greater chance of success, that boils down to the difference between dashing diagonally or in a standard direction. I am afraid the amount of progress I have made is very relevant as it highlights my experience with the game, so if my experience is irrelevant then so is yours.

引用自 Perseus：

Unrelated to the argument, but i did use spike jumps to save attempts, although i'm not sure where or whether it was in mods.

Another "maybe" within a "maybe".

引用自 Perseus：

A lot of the A-sides have spots were such strategies can be used to save yourself, (as do some of the B-sides, although that's more rare) and because of how long the A-sides are, saving one attempt can save a relatively big amount of time. By the way, i never said that this tech was incredibly useful for the official Celeste levels, just that it has its uses.

So it isn't incredibly useful? If only someone had pointed that out already in the thread? Oh wait...

引用自 Perseus：

(as do some of the B-sides, although that's more rare

I especially loved this part, proves exactly what I said about the levels becoming more precise and loaded with traps.

引用自 Perseus：

That wasn't my question, and i don't think i understand yours : What do you mean by "isn't clear enough"?

Again, I only address what you type, why type such a vague question in the first place? I meant exactly what I said, the problem throughout is you are making me repeat myself over and over, and it's actually annoying.

引用自 Perseus：

I wasn't trying to demonstrate anything with that sentence, i was just mentioning that i thought it required neutral walljumps.

Let's just throw out arbitrary sentences for no reason?

引用自 Perseus：

Again, i was just mentioning something, specifically that in addition to being useful in the vanilla Celeste levels, neutral walljumping had also been useful to me in mods.
Sorry for being unclear about that.
(It's been so long since i played regular Celeste and not Spring Collab or regular Celeste but with extended variant changing things that make neutral walljumping completely useless, like no air friction, that i have trouble remembering the specific parts of the game i used neutral walljumps for.)

So again being arbitrary for no reason and not actually wanting to focus on the topic? So you're just wasting my time?

引用自 Perseus：

You were being unclear here, and i thought i would ask why you said two seemingly incompatible things.
(I left out the other part of the sentence not because it was convenient for whatever argument you thought i was making, but because it's a bit faster to just click the quote button once and then separating each part with a copy/paste of "/quote"and its "opposite" (neither of which the noparse tag seems to work on), which also why the next quote didn't have the first part in it.)

Might I remind you, I was never talking to you to start with, if you compare the person's response to what I typed, you would know exactly what I was referring to. Perhaps if you didn't just blindly jump in I also wouldn't have to repeat myself so much.

引用自 Perseus：

You've already said that several times (and you've also explained why later), but here i don't think it's relevant to what i was saying?

Don't keep on making the same points then.

引用自 Perseus：

Again, i wasn't saying you were arrogant. "Arrogant" (which i put between three dots and a question mark to try to indicate i wasn't sure it was the right word) was just the only word that came to my mind (and i'm not good at finding words) when trying to describe how one of your sentences could be interpreted.

So being arbitrary for no reason again?

引用自 Perseus：

I am not trying to silence your opinion, and the part you mention was just me attempting to say you could try to be more diplomatic (which has had the opposite effect, apparently, but hopefully it's only due to miscommunication).

I don't need to adhere to your standards, who are you to tell ANYONE that? Of course I am not suddenly going to appreciate you trying to take the moral high ground when all I wanted to do was discuss a very specific part of the game that I found a problem with.

[Perseus]

引用自 Renfrew：

I am just blocking you

This last post is more for others than you i guess.
In your last post here alone, you :
-Dodged most questions/points (ex: your response to the third quote);

-Didn't give any explanations for sentences that seem to come out of the ether (ex: your response to the third to last quote);

-Are being unclear or are failing to give examples of your own (ex: your response to the second quote);

-Seemingly don't allow for possibilities other than the ones you already believe in, which results in some seemingly nonsense sentences (ex: response to first quote and second to last quote, both of which i don't even begin to understand) and some more understandable one (ex: your response to the fifth quote, in which you thought i was talking specific ways to go through screens, when i was trying to talk about "playstyle" strategies : For example, someone could be going through levels relatively fast, and the moment they fail a jump, just instantly restart, while some would go slower and try to save missed jumps. I do admit i was being unclear, but you weren't trying to be understanding);

-Even when i agreed (partly or not) with you on something, you somehow took it badly and responded aggressively (ex: your response to the seventh quote);


And when interacting with others, including OP who did really well in trying to "defuse" the tone the conversation had taken, you were rude most of the time.
You've also made several strawmen, including the second paragraph in post #12 where you were wondering why you criticizing A-1 Dashless would somehow mean you didn't enjoy the game while OP stated several times the complete opposite in the post you were responding to.

In other words, you've successfully convinced me that you are being [what the first thing i quoted] made you seem like (which i still don't think is arrogant, but i also still don't know what the word for it is), and you've also convinced me that, at least in this topic, you are not worth interacting with (and hopefully convinced others of that as well, who then hopefully won't lose their time trying to interact with you here).


(Note : Sorry for not quoting, i didn't want to make another enormous block of a post)