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Thank you for saying so. The real tragedy should be my inability to safely play for long hours. I should be taking more breaks in games. Sadly not many games are designed around 15 minute play sessions and when I am enjoying myself it is hard to stop for my own good. In Celeste's case I wouldn't know how many times I would fail before clearing a screen so it's pretty easy to try again even if my hands are becoming problematic.(Way more an issue in B and C side where it did take a while to progress in some parts)
Another bit, I might have some compulsion for needing all the achievements in a game. That is certainly a me problem. And in more extreme cases where it maybe is hopeless for me to get an achievement I will eventually give up. That being said, looking back on Celeste I would say that the game probably would have different for me if I had used assist mode to play. I still think it was dumb of me to not use assist as no game should be worth risking more damage to my joints but there is a case that I might not have been as awe struck by the game.
Also clarification, I did get only the wow achievement with assist. I thought I knew where the secret was, spying an alternate route through the stage, and after beating the thing I made my way through to find that wasn't it. Looking it up I realized I'd probably need several more hours to get the last achievement as, after a certain lengthy section of potential death, I missed an opportunity to even try and get it.
Well, as I said, achievements can be considered part of the fun playing a game. Clearly there are people here who find it ambitious enough when collecting them to take issue with others getting them easier so it's hard to say they are meaningless. The idea that people should still get achievements while using assist seems to be strongly opposed by some that I would think it hard to agree with them while saying with a straight face that it's really not important anyway. At the least I would say achievements certainly aren't nothing. They can still be viewed as not important for sure but they definitely exist in some form of relation with the game playing experience. And no worries about long posts. A weakness share too as I seem incapable of trimming mine down.
First off, allow me to say, how rude. Calling it cheating is just you trying to ber dismissive around a game design feature. When people buy a board game and in the rules section there is an extra note telling them to consider ignoring some of the more complex rules for their first time are they cheating for doing so? it was clearly allowed by the designers in that case to familiarize the players with the flow of the game. No. You wouldn't say it was cheating. It's just an alternate rule set you could opt into. So please stop trying to make it sound like the people who use assist mode are bad.
That said, I did use assist mode to secret hunt. The ability to speed through the game to see the story bits is great. Different dialogue with name swaps and such. It really isn't a bad thing. But if someone else wants to spend the normal time climbing everything legit to see if they can jump into a secret screen that's fine too. It's just an option for how to play the game.
I love that your reasoning for why we can't sacrifice tiny bits of personal conveniences to enable others is cause some people exist who might need your life savings to improve their lot in life. A very "I can't save everyone so instead I'll save no one" approach. Assist mode exists in Celeste and I don't think it cost too much more to be implemented but if even small gaps are a bridge too far for you then I suppose that is something for you to struggle with.
You highly misrepresent my argument there to the point I might think you're intentionally being disingenuous. I never said pride in an accomplishment was bad. Pride in an accomplishment based on a relative perception is perhaps nothing to be prideful about. I shall give you even further explanation.
Imagine a new game released where a hypothetical person plays. They beat the tutorial and then stop playing cause it didn't catch them. Checking the achievements they see only 2% of all players that turned on the game actually finished the tutorial. Well, hot damn. that person is now in the top percent for this most rare and elusive accomplishment. Time to feel good that most everyone else didn't get to where they are. Then in a few weeks the game finds a trend and gains an audience that enjoys this niche title. Checking the stats again now 70% of people finished the tutorial. What? You mean they aren't in that awesome elite club any longer? So many people have this it's not even brag worthy. Well there goes that pride for the accomplishment.
Did you see it there? If your sense of value in achievements is related to how many people obtain it then you do have an exclusive ideal for where your pride comes from. It matters not how hard or easy the task was, you merely required others to fail for your own sense of worth to kick in. Beating a hardcore one life mode in that 80 hour rpg? Meaningless if everyone else has done it. Never mind how many hours you spent struggling through it to the finish.
I on the other hand can have achievements for things I accomplish without needing to look through any lens. I don't rely on a perception of difficulty to determine if what I did was noteworthy. So you can keep claiming I dislike people who have pride in their victories or you can listen to the parts I took actual issue with.
If person A tells person B that they aren't deserving to receive some kind of accolade/mention(achievement in this case) of an experience they both had in a game because it would make them feel less good about themselves, as if the whole world revolves around them, then am I not allowed to perceive that as some slight? Some ill-intentioned argument that only exists to try and form a sort of achievement purity club via exclusion? It still seems like that mentality exists to cause some cruelty to another. And if it really is such a small deal then couldn't you argue it either way? What's the harm in people having those achievements then?
I also like how you end with the phrase "That's up to the devs". The Devs did already weigh on the topic. They created assist mode and also didn't exclude achievements so I assume the game runs as intended. Unless you mean to say that gaining achievements in assist is a bug that the devs chose to never address. Or perhaps did you mean you were only fine with the devs decision if it lined up with your own personal desires/beliefs? Thinkingemojitypedout.
Okay, and that's true in this case, but as I said before the normal game climate seems to be that if someone can't do something then they shouldn't have the option to continue. Even asking for easy difficulties in games gets an uproar from people they aren't intended or even aimed at. I said Celeste was kind by comparison. Other games that don't have any options would just require any struggling player to sacrifice. Whether it's a grinding issue eating into their time or a debilitation that can make it hard to function or some cases risk well being the standard seems to be that if you can't pass a challenge then you can't see enjoy the remaining content. It's true If celeste wasn't as kind with it's assist mode it could mean people not getting achievements, as mild amount of game enjoyment may or may not come from such notifications, but they'd still see the rest of the game fully. It's kind of the exceptional case though. I also can't believe I'm explaining it again.
I didn't know all achievement hunters cared about the meta data. I thought they just wished to hunt achievements. For real, this is the only time I've seen people care about meta data purity. If you're sure it is a majority of steam players and not some minority of a subsection then I guess I'll take your word for it. Having never seen it around I certainly can't disprove it exists.
And yes, some of us are fools. Having vain desires or foolish pride are in many ways a foolish trait. In my case I should be more wary of letting my foolish pride ruin me. But I'd be even more a fool if I let the foolish pride or vain desires of others bully me into not using a mode that could help me just cause they label it as cheating. I am glad you are concerned for my well being and insulting myself might not look nice but if it's true true. I shall just apologize to myself later.
It is true more options doesn't mean more buyers but I fail to see how it would mean less. Perhaps some would avoid buying games because of game modes they find personally distasteful. But I would assume you are more likely to interest more people versus losing some the more customizable a game is.
Just gonna chime in real quick here. If the judges of that race say you deserve the medal would you really complain about it? It was probably mentioned in the rules when you signed up that gold medals were for finishing the race. Just saying.
That bit had it's share of snark which I even mentioned just a bit beyond it. Anyway achievements aren't like competing in the Olympics. Maybe for multiplayer games but for single player games its certainly a different affair.
Imagine the The Niesen Railway as our example. 11,674 steps to climb to the top. Let's pretend there is a wheelchair ramp right beside the stairs. It may sound ridiculous but for the hypothetical let's just consider it. One person attempts the Niesen Run and reaches the top. They achieved that. It is something they experienced. Another person in a wheel chair avoids the steps and goes up the ramp. They also reach the top. The guy who used the stairs then says "You can't claim you made it up here cause you used the cheat ramp and sat the whole time in a chair. Sorry." It's kind of not true as they both experienced the same event of making it to the top. The person who took the stairs considers the ramp an easier climb without considering that the ramp was the equivalent of the stairs for that person in the wheel chair. Trying to deny they accomplished something, even if they needed different accomodations for it, is just an attempt to exclude.
I already addressed the dismissive terminology earlier. Moving on.
And as I said many times, achievements are part of the games in some way. You could consider it content. I've said it countless times and you gloss the fact. People enjoy getting them as they play games. It's not like it's an unrelated event that happens magically from nothing.
In other words, you would have to prove to me that achievements are entirely unrelated to video games to convince me that they aren't part of the fun of said games.
Assist mode exists for a similar reason to Text-to-Speech for blind people, or captions for deaf people. Although if your blind you probably wont be playing video games anyways, but the point is that its for accessibility, not cheating, but of course people will use it to cheat anyways, but people would find a way to bypass this anyways, such as disabling assist mode before getting an achievement, and lets say the devs added a flag to your file you cant see if you turn it on once, you could change that by manually editing your save file.
Games made Source Engine disable achievements when you turn on sv_cheats for that session, but someone found that in, for example, portal 2, if you turned on cheats, turned on noclip, and then restarted the game, it would let you get achievements and you would still have noclip on. People will bypass this if they added it.
If you feel satisfied with cheating and getting all the achievements, you can do that, but youll never feel the same way as a person who did it without cheating. Some people who actually cant beat a screen and decide to slow it down or even just skip should be allowed to that, and although it by definition in video games is 'cheating', it also isnt at the same time.
theres nothing stopping you from getting a max% save file in assist mode (in fact i did just that, but im also working on a non-assist mode save slowly), but you wont feel as acomplished as if you do it legitmatley. nobody really cares what achievements they have, they might be proud to have them, but in the end, they arent worth much.
extra note:
on my main save that doesnt use cheat, i accidently turned on variants mode (which is an extension of assist mode), and turned it of in the menu right away. even if the game tracks that i did that, i dont care, because i know ive done everything i have in that without assist mode.
Regardless, a good number of people would disagree with you.
I don't actually care much about all this, but I find it silly that you would need to obtain them despite not caring about needing to earn them. Isn't it contradictory, if they don't matter, why even get them. Why cheat or use easier modes just to get them? Isn't it because they do hold value?
A challenge is a challenge because you surpass yourself, ultimately the achievements themselves aren't worth much, but what's behind them does. Removing that does make them hollow, just like you said.
Now now, no need to get worked up about it. You're right, they're not technically cheats, but what if I don't want to play by those rules? Then it would just give you an unfair advantage (assuming you wouldn't have any problems with your fingers). Which is the very definition of "cheating". That's just how some people see it. If you need ASSIST MODE to help you with your journey, that's totally fine but you can't make everyone play on the same board with the same rules. I already said that and I'm not being dismissive around how a game is designed. I've already been clear on that and you didn't quote me when I employed the terms "assist mode" and "tools" didn't you? Just to make me look bad. For you to say that I'm being "rude" you sure didn't think about it before calling us fools. But I reckon you're being hypocritical as always.
That was just an example btw. Indeed, you can't "save" everyone. There's a just way to implement difficulty levels without penalizing everyone for it. Again, I've been very clear that assist mode is fine if you need it. I even went as far as to say that they could have added more achievements for people who use assist mode. But of course, you completely "yeeted" that part to make me look as bad as possible.
https://imgur.com/a/zhb9Qri
Not only does it look like you overemphasized the definition of pride but it also seems you don't recognize your own. You described it as a shameful act and never have you talked about it as "a good thing". I replied for the whole vision you had of it not only what you wrote in that quotation. You treat it as if YOUR sense of pride was the right one when it's really not.
This is you misrepresenting my argument. I didn't say anything about being proud of easy achievements and if you do, that's great. Yet again, you're assuming I was including every single achievement when I never said anything remotely close to it. Let me quote myself; "what's wrong with being proud of something you worked hard to achieve?" what in the world made you think I was talking about something easy? This is not about some random game. It's about the 2 new achievements of Celeste. Which, last time I heard were both excruciatingly hard to achieve and in that way, your sense of pride for completing them adjust to the difficulty. Look it up, it's right there in the title. This can't be a good example.
This is exactly why lower percentage usually = harder. It's not by the holy light that "Wow" is down the list. Yes, the more a game is played the more accurate the statistics will be, this is not something new. If everyone managed to complete a game to a hundred percent then it probably means the game was easy. Thus, you probably didn't struggle that much to get to the end. The whole point of being proud to achieve something is because you are aware that many people failed to do so.
Then you don't need any achievement to pop on your screen if you're fine with them popping in your head. orian34 answered that perfectly well ▼
I can't believe you're saying that after letting the whole world know about your fingers and how it affects YOU in any game. That everyone should bend to the will of such a small amount of people. As if we're all completely clear of any heath problems ourselves. Wow... But you don't get it, there's no person A telling person B if they are deserving or not. You don't ask people if you are worthy, the game decides (assuming we're talking about a game that is fair to every player). If the target time is 10.01234 minutes and you get 10.01235 then you won't get the achievement. You'd probably be worthy but you still didn't get it. And that's for every accolade / mention / achievement / medal or trophy.
It's funny how you over amplify literally every aspect of an opinion / fact. As if there is no such thing as a "grey area". It's either you're a very good person or a very bad one. You talk about exclusion and yet you make "ill-intentioned arguments" about how we're all foolish with our pride and that we should all sacrifice the fun we have by letting everyone get what they want.
What would be the point of having any achievement at all then? My point was clear on that matter.
I already said that it can't be changed right now. Does that mean we're not allowed to talk about it? Perhaps that's you being exclusive. Suggesting to add specific achievements for assist mode isn't for "my own personal desires". Agreeing that assist mode is a good thing for anyone who needs it also isn't for "my own personal desires". Not being in favor of giving any achievements to anyone who "feel" like they deserve it is (yet again) me trying to make it equal for everyone. It's unbelievable how you put words in my mouth only when it fits you. You're trying very hard to make me look bad despite the suggestions I made. Not cool lad
And I also can't believe that I have to repeat that I'm fine with games having a difficulty slider.
Well, now you know. It's not the majority of all steam users, but it's a higher demographic than people with disabilities that's for sure.
Playing video games also is foolish and useless yet millions does it because it's a form of entertainment and it makes them feel joy. In that way, I wouldn't say it's for fools.
Although you seem to strongly believe otherwise it is refreshing to hear something else than "fool", "rude" and "cruel". Insulting yourself is indeed not the way to go, I think that would be a great initiative.
I'm not a marketing guru but I do believe that extending your playerbase by changing / removing or adding too much features to a game threatens what the game / franchise is originally loved for. I'm pretty sure your last point is debatable, depending on what becomes customizable, I don't know, I'm not sure and that's not what this thread is about.
If that same rule applies to every participant then yes there's nothing to complain about. But if the judges start to nominate people who didn't put as much effort as the others then there's no competition anymore, people are going to stop signing up to that race because they might as well just walk knowing that it wouldn't reduce their chance to win. A race like that would be like mixing fast competitive racers with slow casual runners. Who do you think is put at a disadvantage here? Same goes for Celeste, this system only benefits casual players in terms of achievements.
Hmmmm... No, not true. They're all a form of competition. You can't say that speedrunning is different than MP games in terms of competition just because one develops around singleplayer games. Both of these concepts is to compete against other players in the world. Sure I could always speedrun a game for myself but that's just like playing csgo against bots.
It's the exact same thing for achievements and Olympics. Different ways to compete but competition nonetheless.
The guy in the wheelchair can definitely say he reached the top and be proud of it. He didn't use the stairs though, he can't say he did because that would be false. That could very much be compared to Celeste's achievements. We both reached the top of the mountain but not in the same way (not sure about you but let's say you were assisted to simplify things). Yet we both got the same exact reward for it. You could claim anytime that you reached the top without any assistance but in the end, you didn't. Hence my suggestion to add separate achievements for those who wish to use the assist mode. That way you'll be able to say you climbed to the top without the ability to lie about it. With that being said, great story. I somehow genuinely enjoyed it
There's a way to implement different difficulties without defying too much how the game was originally meant to be played. i.e More heath, more dashes. A bit of assistance on sharp turns where the assisted player would be given a bit more time to react by slowing time. Soft invisible walls that would help you get on the right path without doing it for yourself. If this is correctly implemented, the player can still be forced to follow the originally intended path while experiencing what the creators wanted you to experience. THAT could be called assist mode. What I said in my last post should be reserved for the actual cheat mode of the game. Right now, it's up to the players but I think it's sad that there's a team behind each level that carefully crafted them and some players are missing that aspect completely. Well, if they enjoy it, who am I to judge right?
Looks like we're back to square one...
Doubly rude. You say I've somehow misinterpreted your stance but I looked and read your post thoroughly. I'm quite slow to type as well so I had plenty of time to do so. On several occasions you call assist mode cheats. Or how about this bit here?
You can act like I tried to make you look bad, and while there are times you acknowledge the terminology, it certainly looks to be your grounded belief is that these are unfair to players who don't use them. If you really bad I that I only saw an ill intent in your words then perhaps you should re-examine what you said and attempt to clarify what you really mean. Until then I shall be left thinking you slanderous trying to claim me as always hypocritical like we have some long past. You are slinging mud at me cause you didn't like the impression I gained and that is either something you did with ill intent or possibly ignorance.
I know, you did say that. But why is that a good solution by the devs when how the game works default by the devs is a problem in the first place? That was my ponderings earlier. And the answer being pretty obvious it still is nice to ask the question.
Yes, once again, any time someone lets their pride talk them into taking unnecessary risks it becomes foolish pride. I dislike the fact I ignored assist mode when playing Celeste instead choosing to risk further degradation to my joints. Anyone that does something in a unhealthy way, I.E. me, should not be praised or well thought of. Once again, in that case, yes I am a fool and the pride was foolish. But seeing as you're still quoting the part I literally said was just a snark filled mention you clearly don't care what my words are. Even as I said multiple times that those were not serious, even in the same post I might add, so I don't know why I bothered to clarify the nuance of which kinds of pride I oppose.
That was me literally clarifying more so what I meant about others needing a perception of difficulty. It was me making my own statement and not putting words in your mouth. I felt the need to be clear on what I meant and somehow you take it as me misrepresenting you? I literally gave an example of where I find such thoughts flawed. You seem upside down and turned around on where the conversation even is.
Yeah, like my whole point was a difficulty assumed on acquired percentages seemed silly to me. You kind of mention that people will assume difficulty on acquired percentages naturally so... I'm right? On the assumption part. Whether it's silly is an opinion of course. and yet I feel even including these extra sentences you'll still claim I've done you a great misdeed. I wonder why.
Anyway, why is it that if a game is easy it means our hypothetical player didn't struggle? Even if we consider an achievement with 100% completion each person who got it may have had a tougher or easier time. Maybe the majority got it after one or two tries but some people may have devoted days to getting it. It's mostly irrelevant now though.
Some how the fact I don't care about the meta statistics, not needing satisfaction of knowing others failed elsewhere, means I don't need achievements? I still find it fun. I consider myself somewhat an achievement hunter. Yet you seem intent on misrepresenting me. I have no clue what grudge you hold against me but if you are intentionally spending time attacking me than carrying on the discussion at hand so be it.
The world doesn't revolve around player A or B and that's the point. If Player A wants something to go a certain way cause it makes them feel better then why do you side with player A specifically? I've seen similar points in videos as well. People making clear their desires against easy modes added into Souls and Sekiro. As if the devs should bend over for them when they are on the opposite side of a coin where you have other people/players asking for easier modes. It's fine to say the world doesn't revolve around those that want the easier mode but why do you so easily side with the first group then who desire the exact opposite? That was the question you didn't even answer.
Once again, I called myself foolish for risking injury to play a game in a way I did not need to. If anyone else follows in that idea I will call them foolish as well. Not even a joy of video games should lead others to potentially harm themselves. They have the right to ignore me and may still do as they wish but I don't want to condone anyone to risk self harm for fun. If the thing calling them to try in potentially dangerous ways was their pride then it is a foolish pride. Amazing how often this needs to be restated but for health and well being I shall say it as often as needed.
Also I didn't realize the only fun you get is by gaining an achievement and then wishing others never claim it. I assumed we all had fun climbing the mountain. But if I am arguing against your only source of fun I do apologize. However, I have heard wisdom in that not everyone's needs can be met and specific desires are an easier sacrifice to be made than the whole group. I shall somberly soldier on hopefully to help those who can have more joy protected than I am denying you of.
P.S. I'm prolly not gonna do another pass at your second post. You have pretty frequently ignored my words/stance and accused me of foulness in cases where I clarified my own stance. You have kept calling back to claims I said were not serious as if they hold weight against me. You seem to think of me as an enemy of sorts and I've no clue why. I shall hope you the best even if you do not do the same for me.
"Can you obtain the 2 new achievments on assistant-mode?"
Answer: yes
So following that naturally people are giving opinions and reasons for why they dislike the way it is/why they like the way it is. Seems to be some on the topic at least but as the topic itself is a simple yes or no question there really wasn't much to discuss there. You really could just lock this one up in the first post after getting the answer.
I agree that there isn't one answer, and that in the end it falls back to the devs to decide.
I do think the achievements shouldn't be touched, but that we should have had achievements for doing it without assist mode.
Leaving the normal progression achievements not locked, but still giving some legitimacy for those who didn't use it.