Non subscription license?

[FlynnUOGM]

Might be a stupid question, but is there a way to purchase the software out right instead of paying a monthly subscription fee?

[Ben (SideFX)]

That is a great question. SideFX doesn't sell perpetual licenses on it's own website [www.sidefx.com], and that is why Houdini Indie is sold as a subscription on Steam. At this time it's not possible to buy Houdini outright, it's only available as a subscription (Houdini is updated so often that a perpetual license would quickly become outdated). Sorry about that.

[Perturdoc]

Originally posted by Ben (SideFX):

That is a great question. SideFX doesn't sell perpetual licenses on it's own website [www.sidefx.com], and that is why Houdini Indie is sold as a subscription on Steam. At this time it's not possible to buy Houdini outright, it's only available as a subscription (Houdini is updated so often that a perpetual license would quickly become outdated). Sorry about that.

Sorry, but I found this steatment utterly an excuse just not selling perpetual license. Almost every software version on this industry gets replaced with a new one once hits its year of update support. No surprise, it's a norm.

Also, the idea about being on Steam as a software is generally to becoming more accessible to people around the globe with better/fair pricing thanks to Steam's regional pricing service. But from what I'm seeing is that SideFX is almost doesn't even give a damn about it. It's almost not even noticible price differences on regional pricing vs original price in USD. And now put the subscription only pricing plan for every year or so as an indie / individual use on top of all that and see if it's fair or not. It's labeled as Indie on the title but in fact, not indie friendly at all.

Hope you consider that a honest feedback that comes directly from an indie. Maybe in future you'll consider that in mind.

[Ben (SideFX)]

Ok thanks for your feedback.

[FlynnUOGM]

I get it, you are trying to keep steady income and economically that makes sense. However, I must also disagree on the path you choose. It will hurt in the long run because of costs. Please just hear me out, your target audience is indi devs. We work on limited budgets. We get cash in allotments usually. Other times we are trying to budget our operation costs and living expenses. So to address this, where your company still gets its yearly income, I would suggest doing as other solutions providers have done by offering up an alternative yearly software release. If your software is substantial to the dev, he will plan to purchase the next release through budgeting as cash comes in and allows for large purchases while still using the older software release until funds are available. When using older software, they will get used to using your solution (for a larger upfront single installment price) and allow it to become of the standard workflow. Then, when the next version of the software comes out, they will want to purchase it (again, when funds are available) and plan again for the yearly studio update expense. It also allows for your user base to take time to get familiar with your software. Paying each month to simply learn in my free time how to use it when not developing indi content is something we do try to avoid. From our perspective, we will simply look for another solution in most cases that we can purchase outright. Such solutions even allow for a trial period before purchase, which we do utilize. I think by shifting or allowing for a yearly software release title would be much more of a profitable model for your company, and it will allow your customers to not only become accustom to your software, but also become outspoken supporters. Please know this is not an angry post, or a "you are horrible because we dont get what we want" post. I honestly like what I see with regards to your product. I hope it continues to grow as an industry standard solution! But for the indi dev community, it is best to know more about how we shop and how we consider options when purchasing software. We are usually very careful with our limited funds, but are indeed willing to spend bulk funds if it means a monthly expense can be avoided. I am not saying you should stop doing subscription licenses, that would be horrible advice, I am suggesting you offer an alternative along with your subscription model is all. Keep up the good work.

[profmarkc]

For balance I am going to argue the opposite. Indie subs is $400 for 2 years. No restrictions just an honour code (as it will be almost impossible to police the revenue limits). If you are in business and $17 a month for software is not viable then I would argue it is your business model that is not working. There is nothing wrong with the SIdeFX business model. Heck many Indie subscribers are hobbyists!

[Recon]

Originally posted by profmarkc:

For balance I am going to argue the opposite. Indie subs is $400 for 2 years. No restrictions just an honour code (as it will be almost impossible to police the revenue limits). If you are in business and $17 a month for software is not viable then I would argue it is your business model that is not working. There is nothing wrong with the SIdeFX business model. Heck many Indie subscribers are hobbyists!

as a freelancer for over 20 years...years ago it was not possible to buy any programs subs are good for hobbyist.....but for people like myself and the OP subs are to costly and anyone who ran a business, knows we need to invest...software is an investment...Subs are not an investment... at all.....as an example, Maya does not allows a license anymore....I own Maya 20 man license 2016....I own it free and clear..if I had to pay a monthly sub for each year, as a indie I wouldn't make it to release I would be out of money and not be able to hire many people...indie companies have more than Houdiini....

we have other software to buy, tablets and the many other things.so after STeam takes there 30% , we are lucky to see 20% 25% of profit.... IF we where to sub, we would be much less...and as I said not be able to hire anyone.....or less people I been in business long enough to know better... Now......I don't mind that Houdini Indie is a sub.... as after 1 year of use, I would buy it and you can buy other versions for about 2k, 5k....I own Modo did the indie version I paid 180$ for it and used for 4 years...if I subbed it would of cost me 500$ .....

and the FULL is 1800 dollars which I did switch to and 400$ a year./...... So again indies in my strong experience and opinion is only good for people who do this for fun, or who use these programs once a blue moon..... since Houdini does offer, more than say 3d tools, it offers much more, I could see the sub version being worth it for 1 year for someone like myself...after that 1 year if I like it, I would buy...if I didn't I would stop using all together...... as I cant stand a sub.....

by the way I own CS6 Master and Web versions and I don't miss CC, I also own free and clear if I had to pay for each user....a sub cost for Maya, Modo, Houdini, and the list goes on, my ass would not make it to Alpha......nor would many of other indies.....So keep all of this in mind, I felt I was pretty balanced as I been in this industry, for to long and been in both AAA, indie, AA, and freelancer. ( I own my own company now)

anyways good luck..



I do plan to sub to Houdini for 1 year after 2020.

[Recon]

Originally posted by profmarkc:

e (as it will be almost impossible to police the revenue limits).

you will be sued, in countries like the US, if you don't follow they can easily police this......I been in business in three industries, they know most of what you are doing....PERIOD"


also some of us have morals and follow the rules, and laws...period.

[profmarkc]

Whoops did not make myself clear re the revenue limits. I agree following the rules is the right thing and proper thing to do. I was just pointing how positive it is that SideFx are prepared to give almost everything for a low price, when a revenue limit is the only barrier to entry.

We will have to agree to disagree on how easy it would be for SideFX to check individual tax returns. I think it (for individuals) is close to impossible so that is what makes it such a positive gesture. Heck we can't even see Trump's tax return! Intrigued as to why you think it is easy to police - what am I missing?

Your point about investment is a fair one, but all investments amortise over some time period so have an annual cost associated with them. All of: buy and not upgrade, buy and pay to keep up to date, and subscribe can be converted to an annual cost and compared. I don't really buy the perpetual license so all cost is in year 1, zero in years 2 to infinity perspective. Accountancy rules vary, can you claim software purchases at 100% in year 1?

I do take your point though about subs being great for hobbyists - that is me and I think subs are fantastic.

[Recon]

First not sure what Triump taxes got to do with Houdini...Really? and why the hell do I care, the US is doing well..... ( I should know, I lost 3 organs under the last two Presidents of both parties...So, I would of loved to know where all my money went.. but no one is interested in that right? ( we paid for health care and got none.. so don't get me started on politics so , its better if you keep that off this topic please.. ......






2nd so we stay on topic, I won't get into why, they know...but its part of doing business...to know what and how much money we get... if you are working with Steam XB1, Sony, oh believe me I been in business long enough to know, companies like Houdini, if interested, and most of the time are...can, and will ask for this info... ( i'm not a lawyer, but many companies do check ... I meet someone who thought the same as you and used Auto Desk, and made, well over the 100k..... and he was using an LT version... So....lets put it this way, he is out of business after the fines...So your welcome to do what you like, you can learn the hard way.. if you like.as he did..


Ya, as as the annual cost, add it up, to most software, if you use every day, it will still be around the same after so many years and say a year you don't need, want updates, you can skip....saving money also, then update the next year, or stop all together....and STILL have access, every day 24/7, 365 days a year. So keep all of that in mind, with a sub.....once you stop paying your done....

So if you are a company, that is making a game........you won't be making ANY money for that year and if it takes you 2 year, or that year.... So, as I was saying, see how far you make it having monthly bills....... and what alot of people forgot, there is more bills than Houdini, sub...and its goes by User.. So if you own Substance each program, Maya, Modo, and say you have server costs and you will... Perforce, VC, I mean, I could be here all day, last year I spent prolly 9k on updates...alone.. ( need to double check when taxes get done).... but I spent a lot.. and i'm one person.. who does freelance work...

So imagine, as we do, paying 500 dollars or more a month......VS, paying for software, in full... and we have it for ever..:) Like I said I own a Maya 20 man License... 2016 and its free and clear.... I also own a few CS6 Master, Web versions also.... free and clear... we can do our work just fine. Now I can understand why Houdini did a Sub, and it doesn't bother me much, but I'm not a fan nor do I do them.... but I will for Houdini for one year, I do plan to. if I like I will fork out the 5-7k, for all of the software.


and Last, yes, Subs are great for those that do this for fun, learning, or part time.. but as someone who has been in this industry a long time.. It don't work for us... So that is part of the issue, to many people think well its good for them, it should be good for everyone else....Which is total nonsense, users want a choice.......now if Houdini, had only subs for all versions........I would never touch there software no matter how good it is..

Which is why I refuse to use Speed tree anymore... its all sub crap...every version. sadly.

Have fun, with Houdini, its been really fun using it, the sim aspects is what interest me, as its super powerful..

[Laserbeak43]

Of course, no response from SideFX.

[Ben (SideFX)]

Originally posted by Laserbeak43SRC:

Of course, no response from SideFX.

I replied to this thread on Jul 28, 2019. Did you have any other questions related to this?

[Laserbeak43]

No, thanks. Just wanted to see some conversation on the topic from your team. I did however, check out your website and found that you actually do have perpetual licenses, so I stand corrected. :blush: