Subscription killed it for me. :(

[Genkisan]

Was looking to purchase until I saw it said subscription. No thanks. That’s a quick pass for me when other programs do the same thing for a one time cost. :/

[Ben (SideFX)]

Sorry to hear this but thanks for the feedback. Houdini Indie is set-up as a subscription on Steam because that is how it's setup on SideFX's license system. Houdini is updated very often and a subscription allows the user to get those updates without having to pay for each new version of Houdini.

Would you mind telling me which other programs you're referring to specifically? It's always good to know what similar software packages are doing. Thanks.

[Genkisan]

I use C4D, zBrush and other programs. I have perpetual licenses for each (no sub). Picked them up through some good sale deals in the past. I’m just not crazy about subscriptions. There are plenty of people who don’t mind paying a higher price through perpetual licenses and I think would be nice to see Houdini have that as well.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. :)

[twelveplusplus]

As for me, i really need to be using something at least several days a week to justify a subscription (I subscribe to Houdini Indie, for example). It would be a chilly day in heck when I pay for an Adobe CC or a Maya subscription (for a counterexample)

I'm pretty sure, tho, if I had a few hundred dollars burning a hole in my pocket ($500 to $1000?), I would prolly shell out for a perpetual license... Especially if the annual upgrade price was cheaper than a subscription (like around $100 a year for AUP would be the sweet spot for me....)

(just making up numbers that sound right to me)

--

Also:

"Houdini Indie Core!!!"

Alot more people would prolly go for a "Houdini Indie Core" subscription for $50 a year (or so). I feel like many indies (especially in games) are gonna be using the "Core" features more often than the "FX" features, and $50 is in the "impulse buy range" for most people, but $269 is not.

At that price-point SideFX would prolly even get some booty from "ethical" pirates who already sail the procedurally-generated seas. Otherwise, they should be shot with a cannon. (a pyro-sim cannon, of course)

Might get even get some blender users on-board, which would be cool... I could imagine some crazy coder writing a houdini engine plugin for blender... that would be nifty!

Besides all that "Houdini Indie Core" just sounds awesome!

[siftycat]

Originally posted by Genkisan:

I use C4D, zBrush and other programs. I have perpetual licenses for each (no sub). Picked them up through some good sale deals in the past. I’m just not crazy about subscriptions. There are plenty of people who don’t mind paying a higher price through perpetual licenses and I think would be nice to see Houdini have that as well.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. :)

C4D's perpetual licence is $3500, but that doesn't include updates. You only get the current version. On subscription, C4D and Redshift (closest comparable package, seeing as you get Mantra with Houdini Indie) is $1000 a year.

You can get four years of Houdini Indie for the same price as one year of C4D. Alternatively, you can get 13 years of Houdini Indie for the same price as one, perpetual, non updated version of C4D.

Or you could subscribe to Maya - because there's no perpetual licence there any longer. For the same price you could get Maya LT (with no Arnold, no plugins, no Python), or you could get Maya Indie ($100k revenue limit, also a subscription). Or you could pay the $2500 to get the full Maya for a year.

Or you could get Modo. On Steam, Modo Indie, where it's a whole version behind the full version, with polygon limits, export limits, no plugins, no Python, no commercial use. Or you could get the full, perpetual Modo, for $1900, but you have to have annual maintenance. Or on subscription, for $650.

Or you could get as near as to be damned to the full version of Houdini for a year for $270, where the only real restriction is revenue. And even though Houdini FX is good, I'm finding that I'm not really using everything in Indie that's in FX - so for me, long term, at the point where my revenue increases, I'd probably be getting Houdini Core on the perpetual licence. That's right at the C4D price point.

Because I don't know about you, but I have ambitions to actually increase my revenue to the point where even Houdini FX would be a single digit percentage expense. So I'm happy with a subscription to Indie because at some point I plan to be not eligible to use it.

[twelveplusplus]

^^ @siftycat darn right. i like yer gumption! :D

[Dierenwinkel]

@siftycat Too bad there is no like button but your answer summorised it the best!

I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ love Houdini with their business model and how frequently they update and how big the updates are. Compare that to Maya or 3Ds Max like its night and day hahahahaa.

Love you SideFX <3

[僕の名前 (仮)]

At least it ensure everyone can install latest version... some of the important stuff from H18 can't be done on H17 or 16 version, and the other way around. Nodes get reworked, other nodes become legacy, new stuff in Labs that doesn't work in older versions.

I'm still have apprentice and when I didn't upgrade, I couldn't even complete some of tutorials from newer versions. I also found older tutorials no longer work because some nodes removed or work different. Some 3rd party add-ons didn't even worked on H16.

Imagine like trying help someone and they say they have H15 or 16.. nope, can't help them anymore. Collabing would be difficult too if lots of ppl have old version.

[Genkisan]

Originally posted by ммм, тортик v2.0:

At least it ensure everyone can install latest version... some of the important stuff from H18 can't be done on H17 or 16 version, and the other way around. Nodes get reworked, other nodes become legacy, new stuff in Labs that doesn't work in older versions.

I'm still have apprentice and when I didn't upgrade, I couldn't even complete some of tutorials from newer versions. I also found older tutorials no longer work because some nodes removed or work different. Some 3rd party add-ons didn't even worked on H16.

Imagine like trying help someone and they say they have H15 or 16.. nope, can't help them anymore. Collabing would be difficult too if lots of ppl have old version.

Simple solution. Charge an upgrade fee for the newer versions.
Subs should not promote quick/constant updates as a seller because that is simply a cash grab excuse. Now if it is an upgrade, that is different which I would not mind paying extra for.

Also, another issue with most sub based software is needing constant online access. I use plenty of software that I bought through PLs and I don't have to worry about having online access which is a must for me because I travel often and many times in locations without internet so it is is very important to use my software without worrying that I am locked out of them because I need online access.

I am not against a business offering a sub license but I strongly believe they should also include PL as well for users who require the convenience and are able to pay the full amount. No one has a perfect life. Sometimes ppl can afford to pay full price now but next month financial issues happen and they can not even afford to pay bills let alone subscriptions (which I know plenty of ppl that has happened to. One person I know lost her job and even had to cancel her NetFlix sub because she could not even pay it) so if a software they use is something they might require to continue their work to get back on their feet they are out of luck.

Sub and PL based software both have have their perks which is why I believe both should be offered.

[僕の名前 (仮)]

Simple solution. Charge an upgrade fee for the newer versions.

Too many people would stay in old version, buying 1 time and never upgrade. It's overall bad for industry.

[HHH33]

Originally posted by siftycat:

So I'm happy with a subscription to Indie because at some point I plan to be not eligible to use it.

What do you think about people who aren't pros, though? I'd like to make a bunch of stuff that nobody else will want but me (like certain mediaval imaginary structures that never existed). In the process, I want to learn a "real" package. We live in an unstable world. Politics can reverse fortunes overnight, I feel like if I subbed Houdini, learned some of it, then found myself unable to pay (for example, a growing family, food is more important than dad's toys("selling my boat, got married")) I'd feel like I was a fool to waste time learning software I can't now touch. I remember a guy who was a wiz at Microstation. But there was no home edition. And even Autocad was absurd, then (and totally different). I don't want yo be that guy. Plus, how can you tell someone in a 3rd world country that you have skills? they'll say it's only that you have money, and who's to know? And I know, growing up, no way I could have afforded Houdini with my lawnmowing money. This is not a Houdini-only problem. What would help is if some big 3d company promised to release old versions (or a promised subset) after X years. then you would know your skills would not become deprived of tools. In the better nations, physical tools (like hammers and stuff) relating to one's job are not seized in bankruptcy.

Schemes like Houdini's subs are by the short-sighted (not malice) for the short-sighted (not stupidity, but a blindness from fixed focus on other things). It's not surprising to me that people good at details are bad at the big picture.

also, c4d, I think, was never much really, by comparison, no insult if you like it.

[siftycat]

Originally posted by HHH33:

What do you think about people who aren't pros, though? I'd like to make a bunch of stuff that nobody else will want but me (like certain mediaval imaginary structures that never existed). In the process, I want to learn a "real" package. We live in an unstable world. Politics can reverse fortunes overnight, I feel like if I subbed Houdini, learned some of it, then found myself unable to pay (for example, a growing family, food is more important than dad's toys("selling my boat, got married")) I'd feel like I was a fool to waste time learning software I can't now touch. I remember a guy who was a wiz at Microstation. But there was no home edition. And even Autocad was absurd, then (and totally different). I don't want yo be that guy. Plus, how can you tell someone in a 3rd world country that you have skills? they'll say it's only that you have money, and who's to know? And I know, growing up, no way I could have afforded Houdini with my lawnmowing money. This is not a Houdini-only problem. What would help is if some big 3d company promised to release old versions (or a promised subset) after X years. then you would know your skills would not become deprived of tools. In the better nations, physical tools (like hammers and stuff) relating to one's job are not seized in bankruptcy.

Schemes like Houdini's subs are by the short-sighted (not malice) for the short-sighted (not stupidity, but a blindness from fixed focus on other things). It's not surprising to me that people good at details are bad at the big picture.

also, c4d, I think, was never much really, by comparison, no insult if you like it.

Houdini Apprentice? It's free and comparable to FX in terms of functionality. The only limitations are exporting your work. Even then you can still demonstrate your work, just with a watermark and a 720p maximum resolution.