Tactics for breaking late-game entrenched enemy

[teamhammey]

I've been playing UG:CW for a year now, working up to where I'm in the Battle of Richmond on MG difficulty for the first time. In this battle (and previous late battle games), I've struggled with uprooting entrenched/fortified, experienced enemy. I even do well up to and through Mule Shoe (as Union). Right now my difficulty is centered around Command Post A at Richmond. (game)Hours of barrages by several arty brigades have miminal effect. I expect some infantry heavy losses regardless, but I think mine are excessive as I throw brigade after brigade at a single entrenched unit (~1300 men, 3 star).

I'm thinking I'm missing something from my game and haven't resolved it yet. Maybe it's tactics, maybe it's my army makeup, something else, or a combo. So I'm looking for some advice: "what are successful tactics, army composition, etc. you've successfully used to break difficult fortified positions?"

Thought starters: does it take something like 4 brigades of 10 guns of 20# parrots to make a difference? What about arty placement--do such heavy guns need to be at, like, 75% of their range for maximum effectiveness/damage? Do such arty batteries need to be large, like 16+ guns? What's a good mix of arty type/#of guns for such entrenched positions? What about infantry? Throw multiple 2000+ Springfield 42 & Palmetto 1-star brigades at the position, mix in some 2-star 1500 Lorenz or SP55's or Pattern units with those cannon fodder units? This sure doesn't sound right, but is this where the 3-star SP61 and SP63 1500 men units are needed most?

Just thoughts to start with; you don't have to answer those specifically. Just looking to see what has worked for others so any and all feedback is welcome. Thanks in advance.

[pandakraut]

With Command Point A specifically, are you attacking it from the front? Or are you coming around behind it? Usually you want to go after B and C first since you can be in cover when approaching them, and then you just roll up A from behind after you cleared everything else out. The houses on command point A don't actually give any cover, so it's an extremely dangerous position to take from the front because even once you clear out the trenches you're still sitting in the open.

Massed artillery will definitely pound through fortifications relatively efficiently. The better the cannon, the more experience the unit has, and the closer you can get them to the target without taking return fire, the faster it will go. The exception on getting closer is the 10pdr parrot, that one you always want to be firing at a target that is as far away as possible. This also applies to the whitworth, but matters far less for that one. If you can your cannon into shell or canister range those will provide additional damage boosts as well.

If you are playing the unmodded game, never make an artillery unit larger than 14 guns unless you intend for it to be taking casualties, and in most cases even then I wouldn't do it if I wanted that unit to fire at anything. You're directly reducing your damage past that point due to an oversight in the damage math. Arguably even 14 is only worth it over 12 if you have no other way to utilize those cannon. The drop off in damage per cannon added is very high past 12. In general, if you are optimizing for damage you want as many different units as possible to minimize any diminishing returns from a larger unit. Once you've capped out on as many artillery units as you want to bring, then aim for higher cannon count in a specific unit.

20pdr parrots, 10pdr parrots, and tredegars are your primary long range rifle artillery. Whitworths can work but their damage is so low I wouldn't bother(some other players would disagree). James and Wiards are decent as well, but their shorter ranges mean they often can only be brought into play once enemy artillery is silenced, and at that point you're better off bringing in the howitzers. For smoothbores you want the 24pdr howitzer, everything else is a waste of a slot late game. If you have to use something else you want napoleons, but only use them at relatively close ranges, their 1400 range is a trap as they do minimal damage past 7-800 range. I would generally use 10pdr ordinance in place of napoleons for fortification busting. Only let them fire between canister and shell range though, they are relatively ineffective outside of that band.

Charging massed infantry with high melee stat weapons will generally always work. Detach skirmishers, setup a good assault column where you can keep attacking in waves and you'll break pretty much anything.

Alternately, massed experienced infantry with good weapons and skirmishers detached will shoot their way through most things as well. Just need to setup your line so that any given fortification is getting hit by 4+ of your own units and you can usually rout them pretty quick. This works better for more isolated positions though. Something like mule shoe it will work, but the layered fortifications are better dealt with through artillery.

Details on unit sizes and ranges that weapons are effective: https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26142-hidden-mechanics-and-weapon-damage-degradation/

Richmond example, see the same channel for massed artillery at mule shoe: https://youtu.be/NSYzJGbQIVA?list=PLt-JAMmvyAGnbrADDeAM04mxBsI9FyWQ0

Late game csa fortification busting with an infantry heavy army: https://youtu.be/sBUmpKZpkzw?list=PLfSvZFYfSsUP3chKRzX7peXsKWCnZKuEU

Late game csa with a small infantry army: https://youtu.be/diTfyRFzNM4?list=PLNFTAFys32_-N-fIfWJgRSJIhVtOZjEGe

[AMekhov]

Also if you are using big brigades, mix of big and small brigades, or even detached skirmishers with any other brigade, you can bring more firepower in the shorter frontline length.
This method works fine for both ways, attack and defence.
This game allows around 20% of overlapping.

https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/terd/PVRWRJHxj
https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/oeyi/aGFztuJH3
https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/TDVw/D8CJ4AM6C

And closer to the enemy flanks, you can use kinda whirlpool formation for massive attack

https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/NoQN/cAFFuqbuE

[teamhammey]

Thanks for the responses and creating the videos and marked-up screen shots, etc; the time and effort put into them is much appreciated. I spent Friday eve reviewing your notes and the links, went back to Camp and rebuilt my corps and am implementing them in the campaign now with improved success. It was also reassuring that I was already doing some of the suggestions.

Here are some of my takeaways from your comments and links:

1. MG and Legendary require an even higher level of detail to units and tactics. I knew and was doing that, but am learning it's at yet another level.
2. One minor example: I rarely use melee, and don't specifically develop units with high melee experience; I have about 5-6 units with melee between 30-50, period.
3. Repeatable success at MG and Legandary also seems to be a function of playing each battle multiple times. It becomes intelligence/recon of sorts, where you learn the enemy tactics, strengths/weaknesses, etc. and develop/deploy units accordingly (examples: advance knowledge of when and where an enemy supply wagon appears and is vulnerable; knowing where AI likes to setup Art'y batteries).
4. I still haven't completely broken free of how I conducted past battles; i.e. how I won in Col. and BG levels is often not applicable to MG battles. The (well-done and very helpful) campaign videos Pandakraut pointed me to in the fall helped that considerably but that past-experience bias showed up again here at Richmond. (Those videos also helped teach me when to use more patience vs. objectives; this is another place where prior knowledge of playing any given battle multiple times becomes valuable.)

I'm playing the unmodded version; the plan is to complete this MG campaign, do some more research in the discussions and videos, complete another where I clean up things, then jump to the mod. Thanks again.

[Dauntless07]

In Vanilla, the best way to rout fortified units is flanking, typically at the map edge. If you don't want to cheese it like this, the 2nd best way is to dedicate a Division to the task. Rookies with Farmers/1842s can get the job done just fine. 3rd best way is canister with human shields. This method is most useful in preventing enemy units from reoccupying positions when mutually supportive ones prevent you from occupying it yourself, (the Mule Shoe, for example.)

[pandakraut]

Originally posted by teamhammey:

1. MG and Legendary require an even higher level of detail to units and tactics. I knew and was doing that, but am learning it's at yet another level.
2. One minor example: I rarely use melee, and don't specifically develop units with high melee experience; I have about 5-6 units with melee between 30-50, period.
3. Repeatable success at MG and Legandary also seems to be a function of playing each battle multiple times. It becomes intelligence/recon of sorts, where you learn the enemy tactics, strengths/weaknesses, etc. and develop/deploy units accordingly (examples: advance knowledge of when and where an enemy supply wagon appears and is vulnerable; knowing where AI likes to setup Art'y batteries).
4. I still haven't completely broken free of how I conducted past battles; i.e. how I won in Col. and BG levels is often not applicable to MG battles. The (well-done and very helpful) campaign videos Pandakraut pointed me to in the fall helped that considerably but that past-experience bias showed up again here at Richmond. (Those videos also helped teach me when to use more patience vs. objectives; this is another place where prior knowledge of playing any given battle multiple times becomes valuable.)

2. You can get away without it if you prefer a shooting focused army. The 2v1 penalty is so high in the base game that you can get by with rookie units to swarm the AI at the few points that melee is required. Performance certainly improves with dedicated melee units though.
3. While not necessary by any means, it certainly helps. The videos referenced above generally are the result of a lot of experimentation but you can absolutely get through the campaign without that amount of foreknowledge or cheese. That is more for if you're really trying to keep casualties as low as possible or min/max in some other way. Knowing when you have extra time in battles, when you can give up VPs, and such does definitely make things a lot easier though. D-Dub's guides on steam are an extremely useful reference for those.
4. Col and BG do tend to encourage some habits that will get you in trouble on higher difficulties. Takes some time to adjust, but with practice I'm sure you'll get used to it.

[AMekhov]

Originally posted by teamhammey:

1. MG and Legendary require an even higher level of detail to units and tactics. I knew and was doing that, but am learning it's at yet another level.

If you already learn all game mechanics that are not so obvious, legendary is easier than MG, especcially in default game.
More enemies = bigger pack = less damage
More enemies = more weapon dropped

But the most important thing is playing from the cover, to take you casualities low.
As a result you dont need to buy pricier infantry weapons, you dont need medicine, and your cavalry, skirmishers and arty will be better equipped.

So this is what am talking about
different position - different bonus

https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/sxKY/xRxRJEErf

same for the fortification, sometimes just standing on it, gives you more bonuses that entrencing it.

https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/Vs1V/rtwZHTsMA
https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/YfU7/EZHpyUhFM

Originally posted by teamhammey:

2. One minor example: I rarely use melee, and don't specifically develop units with high melee experience; I have about 5-6 units with melee between 30-50, period.

35-45 points of melee are decent enough for gaining 3rd star way faster, so dont be crazy about it.
but 3rd stat far more important for other unit types, than for the infantry, especcialy for arty. But unfortunatelly arty has no good melee, so it will build their 3rd star at the end of its growth.

https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/vKgr/hwtaRiWGd

Originally posted by teamhammey:

3. Repeatable success at MG and Legandary also seems to be a function of playing each battle multiple times. It becomes intelligence/recon of sorts, where you learn the enemy tactics, strengths/weaknesses, etc. and develop/deploy units accordingly (examples: advance knowledge of when and where an enemy supply wagon appears and is vulnerable; knowing where AI likes to setup Art'y batteries).

Knowing your deploy is 95% of a success, for example 1 deploy box - 20 brigades, but for the first phase you will have only first 7th of them, and the game have zero pre-battle description about this moment, so you need to read deploy guides, or play a battle to discover that moment.

Originally posted by teamhammey:

4. I still haven't completely broken free of how I conducted past battles; i.e. how I won in Col. and BG levels is often not applicable to MG battles. The (well-done and very helpful) campaign videos Pandakraut pointed me to in the fall helped that considerably but that past-experience bias showed up again here at Richmond. (Those videos also helped teach me when to use more patience vs. objectives; this is another place where prior knowledge of playing any given battle multiple times becomes valuable.)

I'm playing the unmodded version; the plan is to complete this MG campaign, do some more research in the discussions and videos, complete another where I clean up things, then jump to the mod. Thanks again.

This game is like a monopoly, and game plays itself.
Because if you are good, it doesnt matter how many forces you have. But if you are good you will get more and more of them.

US Gaines Mill and Malvern Hill are winnable in 18500 vs 65000 scenario.
Same for the other big battles, you dont need to be in 1vs1 ratio, even 1vs2 is a very good option.

For example this is my 2nd Bull Run
I didn use reputation for the money and manpower, only for the guns, but it is terrifying, that power growth goes that kind of a way.

https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/UGgH/f67aZdQtJ
https://thumb.cloud.mail.ru/weblink/thumb/xw1/mb44/c3D3iHg4s

But I saw one Russian guy was playing CSA Legendary, with almost zerg rush style, ignoring all cover, his forces were 90% of the time on the field and the enemy was always in the forrest, the cavarly k\d ratio was near 1to1, and every battle he has 2-3 brigadier generals killed, he lost lots of artillery also, but he beat a legendary campaing ignoring any logic :D

So mainly you can win the campaign in any style you play with, that is why it is a monopoly game, just take some fun :D

[Morkler]

Just more, the way to win is to fully kit out every single possible unit slot. even with small units. by the last campaign you should have unlocked every brigade, division and core available. second Parrots, massed batteries of parrots, they target enemy cannon and keep broken units from regaining morale after they have with drawn. to force a unit to withdraw attack with three to five times the number of men, constantly playing leapfrog with the units.
e.g.
unit a is about to shot, unit b is then told to close in in front of unit a, once unit b is set to shoot, repeat with units c.
tactic applicable both horizontally so that more than one unit is being leapfrogged and vertically with more units participating with the final unit being a melee blob with farmer rifles for a good ole bash their faces in.