Ultimate General: Civil War

Ultimate General: Civil War

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bunny32794 Mar 5, 2018 @ 3:27pm
Melee and Ranged Cavalry?
I exclusively use ranged cavalry, but I wonder if there's something I'm missing out on something.

The main reason I ask is because I want to use melee cavalry, yet can't rationalize it. My philosophy of army composition is that units should find their role naturally with their effectiveness and usage self-evident. If I have to think about why a unit should be useful, I take it as a sign that it's not. If I find myself trying to justify the use of a unit or trying to force circumstances in which they're useful, then that's bad news.

If melee cavalry was truly worth it, I figure, then I should feel something "missing" from my playstyle or constantly encounter a tactical issue no other unit can solve, and yet this isn't the case. I find ranged cavalry to be cheaper, more tactically flexible, easier to use, and more survivable than melee cavalry.

At present, I'm already pretty good at cavalry, so I don't think I'd have a tactical problem with using them. I have 1 or 2 brigades per corps and it works out swell: micro-management is key and I'm consistently able to rack up 10:1 kill ratios with every unit. My infantry engages from the front, I safely ride around to the flank, inflict a few dozen casualties, retreat to safety, rinse and repeat.

I briefly used melee cavalry when I started playing the game, but found they were mostly only good for inflicting damage on skirmishers and retreating enemy units, something that ranged cavalry already does just fine. Charging from the flank with melee cavalry seemed logical to me, but more often than not this resulted in heavy casualties of which I will not tolerate for cavalry.

Am I right for being so exclusive?


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Showing 1-15 of 21 comments
Ninjasquirrel Mar 5, 2018 @ 4:06pm 
I think you should just try to use them more if you're already good with cav, it sounds like you tried them initially and didn't like them, but green melee cav is just crap. Once they're 2 stars or more, you can actually start using them as real shock cavalry. They kill artillery faster than ranged (ranked up they can melee kill a 300-man battery in 3 or 4 seconds), shatter routed units faster than ranged, and if they catch ranged cav they murder them. I feel like they level up a lot faster than ranged too, but that could be just me. Just level up a melee unit or 2, send them behind enemy lines and see what they can do.
[TFM]bobcat Mar 5, 2018 @ 4:37pm 
Melee cav do perform essentially the same function but can be just as effective. I have a guide on using cav in the guide section that covers their use. I often like to use both types of cavalry together since their uses are fairly complementary with 1 unit of skirm cav and 2 melee per corps. For instance, if I am facing 5 units of artillery together in the same relative spot, I use the ranged cav to route 4 of them and make sure they stay routed and use the 2 skirms to go after 1 and wipe it out and then systematically use them to wipe out the others. Skirm cav often are not as good in the pursuit role compared to melee cav and melee cav can cut down fleeing troops far faster than skirm cav can shoot them. Same with infantry. Melee cav should not attack infantry with loaded weapons. The key is to either use infantry in concert with them to take the volley first and then send in the melee cav or you can use the skirm cav to rout them and finish them off with the melee cav or have melee cav in good cover, let infantry shoot at them there where they will get few casualties and then charge in.

as an addendum to the case for melee cav, they can often be among the top units for kills in my battles.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923671058505815045/88008945181C3EAA57FD0B32F8E00239E25FE809/
Last edited by [TFM]bobcat; Mar 6, 2018 @ 8:35am
bunny32794 Mar 5, 2018 @ 8:19pm 
Originally posted by Ninjasquirrel:
I think you should just try to use them more if you're already good with cav, it sounds like you tried them initially and didn't like them, but green melee cav is just crap. Once they're 2 stars or more, you can actually start using them as real shock cavalry. They kill artillery faster than ranged (ranked up they can melee kill a 300-man battery in 3 or 4 seconds), shatter routed units faster than ranged, and if they catch ranged cav they murder them. I feel like they level up a lot faster than ranged too, but that could be just me. Just level up a melee unit or 2, send them behind enemy lines and see what they can do.
They kill artillery well? Huh, I guess that's why you specified them being leveled up. I remember in one of the early CSA battles (the one where you defend the train station?) I had snuck a full-strengh, full-morale, full-condition melee cavalry unit behind Union lines and came across 3 completely undefended artillery batteries. Using the woods I concealed my approach and burst out, only to barely rout one of the batteries before being shattered by canister fire from the other two. That alone really killed my enthusaism for melee cavalry.

A big part of why I'm timid for melee cavalry is because melee overall has been pretty confusing to me, which I guess is the greater issue here.

You see, I'm a veteran of CW:G (the Ipad version is limited, but it impressed me enough to buy this) and in CW:G melee was very decisive, and units could be brought down to half-strength in 30 seconds if you had enough troops. I remember even destroying entire units (as in literally killing every single man) under the right circumstances. Melee could be a huge killer, and the winner would often have enough condition and morale to charge another immediately afterward.

Now I don't know what to do. I might charge an artillery unit only to have a handful of soldiers die every second. The rapid kills of CW:G (where the number of men in the unit blurred sometimes) seem impossible now. However, I can't at least accept the fact that it's more realistic (only 2% of casualties were from bayonets, I believe).
[TFM]bobcat Mar 5, 2018 @ 10:02pm 
Originally posted by bunny32794:
Originally posted by Ninjasquirrel:
I think you should just try to use them more if you're already good with cav, it sounds like you tried them initially and didn't like them, but green melee cav is just crap. Once they're 2 stars or more, you can actually start using them as real shock cavalry. They kill artillery faster than ranged (ranked up they can melee kill a 300-man battery in 3 or 4 seconds), shatter routed units faster than ranged, and if they catch ranged cav they murder them. I feel like they level up a lot faster than ranged too, but that could be just me. Just level up a melee unit or 2, send them behind enemy lines and see what they can do.
They kill artillery well? Huh, I guess that's why you specified them being leveled up. I remember in one of the early CSA battles (the one where you defend the train station?) I had snuck a full-strengh, full-morale, full-condition melee cavalry unit behind Union lines and came across 3 completely undefended artillery batteries. Using the woods I concealed my approach and burst out, only to barely rout one of the batteries before being shattered by canister fire from the other two. That alone really killed my enthusaism for melee cavalry.

A big part of why I'm timid for melee cavalry is because melee overall has been pretty confusing to me, which I guess is the greater issue here.

You see, I'm a veteran of CW:G (the Ipad version is limited, but it impressed me enough to buy this) and in CW:G melee was very decisive, and units could be brought down to half-strength in 30 seconds if you had enough troops. I remember even destroying entire units (as in literally killing every single man) under the right circumstances. Melee could be a huge killer, and the winner would often have enough condition and morale to charge another immediately afterward.

Now I don't know what to do. I might charge an artillery unit only to have a handful of soldiers die every second. The rapid kills of CW:G (where the number of men in the unit blurred sometimes) seem impossible now. However, I can't at least accept the fact that it's more realistic (only 2% of casualties were from bayonets, I believe).

That is because in this game there is a mechanic whereby the more units you have in melee, the more effective they will be. 1 unit of cav on their own will suck but 2 units of completely green rooky cav will be able to route a fresh 3 star infantry unit provided that that infantry unit doesnt get the chance to fire at the cav while they are in the open. Otherwise, 2 units of melee cav will kill enemy troops far faster than 1 or even more units of skirm cav
Last edited by [TFM]bobcat; Mar 5, 2018 @ 10:03pm
JusTheory Mar 6, 2018 @ 1:16am 
I use melee cav to scout and route. Use them to eyeball any place you are concerned about flanking. When the opportunity arises use them to chase down routing units or charge a foolish artillery/skirmish unit that's all by it's lonesome. After the arty has fired of course. Don't want to eat canister shot if you can help it.
Hugh de Salle Mar 6, 2018 @ 7:06am 
Melee Cav are for more useful imho i use them to smash arrty and skirmishers + other cavalry.
bunny32794 Mar 6, 2018 @ 7:35am 
Originally posted by TFMbobcat:
That is because in this game there is a mechanic whereby the more units you have in melee, the more effective they will be. 1 unit of cav on their own will suck but 2 units of completely green rooky cav will be able to route a fresh 3 star infantry unit provided that that infantry unit doesnt get the chance to fire at the cav while they are in the open. Otherwise, 2 units of melee cav will kill enemy troops far faster than 1 or even more units of skirm cav
I've heard that some players will detach skirmishers to take advantage of that mechanic, though I'm not sure how frowned upon it is.

When I first heard about detaching skirmishers to "stop charges" I thought they meant sacrificing a skirmisher unit up front to break the momentum of an enemy unit while the mother unit lays on fire from behind. But when I discovered they actually meant making the fight technically 2-on-1 I felt unsure. Most communities would consider that "gamey" or "exploitative", but then again this game seems a little unfair at times (the troop auto-scaling, for one) so I guess maybe certain tactics get a free pass.

[TFM]bobcat Mar 6, 2018 @ 8:18am 
Originally posted by bunny32794:
Originally posted by TFMbobcat:
That is because in this game there is a mechanic whereby the more units you have in melee, the more effective they will be. 1 unit of cav on their own will suck but 2 units of completely green rooky cav will be able to route a fresh 3 star infantry unit provided that that infantry unit doesnt get the chance to fire at the cav while they are in the open. Otherwise, 2 units of melee cav will kill enemy troops far faster than 1 or even more units of skirm cav
I've heard that some players will detach skirmishers to take advantage of that mechanic, though I'm not sure how frowned upon it is.

When I first heard about detaching skirmishers to "stop charges" I thought they meant sacrificing a skirmisher unit up front to break the momentum of an enemy unit while the mother unit lays on fire from behind. But when I discovered they actually meant making the fight technically 2-on-1 I felt unsure. Most communities would consider that "gamey" or "exploitative", but then again this game seems a little unfair at times (the troop auto-scaling, for one) so I guess maybe certain tactics get a free pass.

Personally I do not frown upon it. It is not a cheat. The more units= better melee is a mechanic that by all appearances is supposed to be there and since it is there I don't see how the player taking advantage of that mechanic, even if the AI can't, is at all wrong. I would say that detatching skirms to get enemy brigades to halt their charges before they can get to you is a bit of a gamey tactic but I feel that the AI is rather charge happy in a rather unhistorical way so I personally do not feel any guilt in using this tactic.

What does this have to do with cav exactly?
IRDCAM Mar 6, 2018 @ 8:23am 
There were three types of Cavalry in this era.

Small 'Light Cavalry' units, Troops, used for scouting, flank security/screening, raiding, and the occasional melee attack. Usually armed with multiple pistols and saber. In the age of rifled muskets and far longer range Light Cavalry avoided confrontation with large Infantry formations.

Larger 'Mounted Rifles' essentially an Infantry unit mounted on horse for fast reaction and movement. Armed with 'carbines', pistols, and sabers there role was to fill in gaps fast, and to move to any needed areas. The fought dismounted and remounted to disengage or advance.

Finally dedicated 'Raider' Cavalry primarily used as behind enemy lines guerilla units to disrupt supply and communication lines, burn railroad bridges, tear up railroad tracks, and drain the enemy of front line forces now needed to chase them.

In game the Light and Mounted Rifles can be used in the roles intended. I usually have one Mounted Rifles and one Light Cavalry unit in the initial 2 Division Corps build, and expand as needed. And I use them as intended.

As for the role of Skirmishers, they can be used as a screen to block assaults but I use them as screening forces in wood lines along enemy movement routes to slow the advance so they absorb more ranged fire. Do not sacrifice Skirmishers for limited goals, they are most effective as a slow or break the advance of enemy assaults, disengage them when the main unit takes the enemy under sustained fire. And when you advance a screen of skirmishers will alert your to the presense of enemy forces. Again break contact so main unit can use ranged fire and use the skirmisher as a flanking force to find any supporting unit.

I was a Civil War re-enactor. Originally I was Union Cavalry 5th New York, we were Light Cavalry, and played the role at big events. I used a combination of Colt and Remington pistols and saber. 5th NY disbanded and we formed 12th New York Mounted rifles, I used a 1863 Sharps Paper Cutter 'Carbine' as well as pistols and saber. Moved out to Nebrasaka and became Confederate 'Raider' Cavalry, have a Cook and Brother 'carbine' and the pistols and saber.
Now as I am older I was the Quartermaster for the Muddy River Brigade out here in Nebraska. Medically I am no longer involved.

I researched the roles of Cavalry in the era and use that knowledge in game to great effect.
Last edited by IRDCAM; Mar 6, 2018 @ 8:42am
Kristoph42 Mar 6, 2018 @ 11:04am 
I like melee cavalry. They do have a tendancy to violate routed troops. I have had CAV units kill off 1000+ INF brigades. The best way to use them is to not "charge" enemy units. You can simply move the CAV unit through an enemy unit and your CAV will engage in melee with the enemy and achieve basically the same results as a charge, without charging. You can also move through enemy units with your INF and detached SKM to engage in melee. You don't need to click the "charge' button. This will actually save 'condition' for your units. With the horses, you might have to click on them and tell them to move back through the enemy because they will move to the destination you tell them to move toward. Some might consider that to be a 'gamey' trick but I don't view it as such. The same thing with 'detaching' SKM to stop charges, I don't consider that 'gamey' either. Important note: The enemy INF needs to routed or semi-routed in order to violate it in melee. Also, it is better to have two or more units engaged in melee.
Harry Flashman Mar 6, 2018 @ 11:43am 
As much as I adore my three sabre cavalry brigades (who, as mentioned above, should hunt together), I was astounded by what those late-era Spencer Carbine repeaters can achieve: thousands of kills per battle. Using the super-unit provided to the South after Shiloh, of course... still exploring the Spencers in other's hands.
[TFM]bobcat Mar 6, 2018 @ 12:02pm 
Originally posted by Sheldon Cooper:
As much as I adore my three sabre cavalry brigades (who, as mentioned above, should hunt together), I was astounded by what those late-era Spencer Carbine repeaters can achieve: thousands of kills per battle. Using the super-unit provided to the South after Shiloh, of course... still exploring the Spencers in other's hands.

I used to go with the 3 sabre cav per corps but I too stumbled upon skirm cav and now I find that they can work well in concert with sabre cav in groups of 2 sabre cav and 1 skirm cav
Hellraiser Mar 6, 2018 @ 12:15pm 
the thing about Cavalry use in the civil war is by this period an actual cavalry charge was useless, they'd be slaughtered so they became a recon/ skirmish unit instead just as you use them
Ninjasquirrel Mar 6, 2018 @ 4:29pm 
Originally posted by SrSgt Ivan Patapov:
There were three types of Cavalry in this era.

Small 'Light Cavalry' units, Troops, used for scouting, flank security/screening, raiding, and the occasional melee attack. Usually armed with multiple pistols and saber. In the age of rifled muskets and far longer range Light Cavalry avoided confrontation with large Infantry formations.

Larger 'Mounted Rifles' essentially an Infantry unit mounted on horse for fast reaction and movement. Armed with 'carbines', pistols, and sabers there role was to fill in gaps fast, and to move to any needed areas. The fought dismounted and remounted to disengage or advance.

Finally dedicated 'Raider' Cavalry primarily used as behind enemy lines guerilla units to disrupt supply and communication lines, burn railroad bridges, tear up railroad tracks, and drain the enemy of front line forces now needed to chase them.

In game the Light and Mounted Rifles can be used in the roles intended. I usually have one Mounted Rifles and one Light Cavalry unit in the initial 2 Division Corps build, and expand as needed. And I use them as intended.

As for the role of Skirmishers, they can be used as a screen to block assaults but I use them as screening forces in wood lines along enemy movement routes to slow the advance so they absorb more ranged fire. Do not sacrifice Skirmishers for limited goals, they are most effective as a slow or break the advance of enemy assaults, disengage them when the main unit takes the enemy under sustained fire. And when you advance a screen of skirmishers will alert your to the presense of enemy forces. Again break contact so main unit can use ranged fire and use the skirmisher as a flanking force to find any supporting unit.

I was a Civil War re-enactor. Originally I was Union Cavalry 5th New York, we were Light Cavalry, and played the role at big events. I used a combination of Colt and Remington pistols and saber. 5th NY disbanded and we formed 12th New York Mounted rifles, I used a 1863 Sharps Paper Cutter 'Carbine' as well as pistols and saber. Moved out to Nebrasaka and became Confederate 'Raider' Cavalry, have a Cook and Brother 'carbine' and the pistols and saber.
Now as I am older I was the Quartermaster for the Muddy River Brigade out here in Nebraska. Medically I am no longer involved.

I researched the roles of Cavalry in the era and use that knowledge in game to great effect.

All 3 cavalry types seem similarly armed, was there a difference in how these units were trained or treated?
IRDCAM Mar 6, 2018 @ 6:20pm 
Yes, First you must understand the forces involved. There were essentially 2 wars one in the East and one in the West and each had different methods. And each had a different doctrine for all branches.

First off, the Cavalry Regiments were formed by and from the populace of the individual States on both sides. Each State armed and trained based on what was available, there was no real standard in equipment or training until well into 1863. Most trainers were veterans of the Mexican War, where the tactics and equipment were outdated in a 'modern' war, so early on the Cavalry was essentially operating on the Mexican War therories, and loses reflected.

In the North the Cavalry was formed by 'city folk' most non riders, so a square one approach, and depending on the trainers and the role required as determined by the State for it's regiments.

In the South being far more rural, effective riders were available and the States also determined the roles. Once the interned Union equipment stocks were used up, the arms and equipment really varied as the South had no way to make mass weapons for their infantry let alone cavalry.
Many Southern units had many different weapons and equipment that logistics was a nighmare.

As the roles evolved from the Napoleonic doctrine to the needs of the new form of warfare, the roles of the Cavalry changed. Before the rifled musket, Cavalry could charge absorb the one volley ar say 50yds and then close before the Infantry has reloaded, and they charged at the seams between infantry squares not at the squares themselves. Once the rifled musket appeared the charging Cavalry could take 2 to 3 volleys at range before they closed, so the efectiveness of the Cavalry charge deminished. So the new roles of Scouting and Flank security began for the Light Cavalry, the Mounted Rifle concept began consider them like modern mechanized infantry, the heavy shock cavalry vitually disappeared.

A Cavalryman in a New York Cavalry Regiment was armed and equiped differantly than a Cavalryman from Nebraska. Same in the Southern Cavlaryman a Virginian cavalryman, far different than a Mississippi Cavalryman. The Army Corps Commanders of each side assigned his cavalry units based on their ability and equipment.

Light Cavalry was designed and trained to be just that, Light fast and small units as to operate on the flanks and as foward recon. They were usually armed with a pistol on person, and two more in a pommel holster set on the saddle, with saber. The was 15 rounds of pistol, and saber, designed more to disengage that unit if it ran into something. Pistols were always loaded with 5 rounds and hammer on empty cylinder to prevent accidental discharge.

Mounted Rifles were designed and trained as mounted fast moving Infantry. The carbine was the standard issue, still single shot as the later designs were only breechloaders as availible. There role was to get to tactical advantage points before the opposition, dismount and act as Infantry.

Raider Cavalry were an anomoly. Usually a group of local good ole boys, who fought for profit from what they could steal in the caos of the enemy rear essentially with 'permission' of the local commanders. Both sides used them, Jesse James was from one of these units, the fictional Josey Wales was another as well as the Red Legs who chased him. They did cooperate with the area commmanders in such missions as blow a bridge here, tear up rails here, and a blind eye to the other actions of the unit behind the lines.

My re-enactment uniform from New York was the Blue and Yellow high necked 'bumble bee' jacket, light blue rider butt padded pant, high jockey boots with knee cap, black leather brass buckled belt, reverse pull holster, 1 two cylinder pouch, and saber frog, blue slouch hat, 3 Remington 1858 cap and ball revolvers, and a Sharps 1863 paper cutter carbine for later war personna, early war was just pistols, typical for a New York Cavalry unit, all issued by the State in the time. Here in Nebraska it was bring a blue coat , your horse and tack, shelter cup and plate, and your firearm you are now Union cavalry.
Last edited by IRDCAM; Mar 6, 2018 @ 6:26pm
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Date Posted: Mar 5, 2018 @ 3:27pm
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