Union Army Organization over course of campaign

[Bramborough]

First playthrough. Colonel difficulty. Have done well so far; all victories except for one minor battle where I didn't fully understand the timer (I thought I had time to go past "finish" and recover a point). For each Grand Battle to date, my army has been amply sufficient to meet the starting deployment parameters. I'm currently at Army Org 5, which I think is 3 corps, 3 divisions, 5 brigades, 2000 men. I've only "gold-plated" a couple of brigades with veteran rebuiliding and either Spring1855's or Lorenz equipped; almost all my infantry have gotten rookie rebuilds and using Spring or Palmetto 1842's.

And then I run into 2nd Bull Run, which requires (or rather, allows) 4 corps, and a total of 80 brigades. Um....wow, what did I do wrong along the way?

I know I don't have to have ALL that, but I'm currently at 2 corps of 3Div/5Bde each (total of 30 brigades). I have the 3rd Corps slot available, and (maybe) just enough money/resources to flesh it out with cannon fodder infantry (Manpower not an issue; weapons and officer availability/cost is a concern). But then I'm still maxed out at a total of 45 brigades, just barely over half of the top limit for this battle.

Is 2nd Bull Run even do-able at these force levels? Have I severely hamstrung myself by not pushing Army Organization earlier?

I do have one career point available before going into 2nd Bull Run; if I spend it on Army Org, it'll get me up to 4 divisions per corps (And I do have the 3rd corps slot too)...but that puts me in the position of having to literally double my army size from 30 to 60 brigades. Even if it's all just cannon fodder infantry with cheapest weapons available at smaller brigade sizes (1500? 1200?), I don't know if I have the money, officers, and arms available to do that.

Bottom line: I feel like, at least for a first playthrough, I was developing my army intelligently...in a way that worked just fine for Shiloh and the Seven Days' battles. If in fact I really need 4 corps totalling 80 brigades for 2nd Bull Run, or something close to it, then I guess this campaign is wrecked. But more to the point, that's an *enormous* jump in force levels from one grand battle to the next. If I did completely derail myself with army size/org...well there was no indication at all from the major/minor battles progression to indicate I was going off the tracks.

[Operation Iraqi Freikorps]

The campaign is very flexible on lower difficulties. Small professional armies can win, but so can larger less experienced ones. I beat it with 2 Corp and a division for a third at 5 Army Organization. I usually prefer the method of a smaller professional army, but that requires more use of detached skirmishers. I played Second Bull Run a couple days ago. You can do it fairly easily, if you have one or two batteries of Napoleons or 24PDR Howitzers firing canister into the defenses. You will be fine.

[D-Dub]

I'm hardly a veteran yet, but I'll second Teegardin21 -- so far as my Colonel experience goes. On 4 different Colonel campaigns (3 CSA, 1 Union), I was, for the first several years, always outnumbered but, though on the edge of my seat often, always came out on top. I am only now into my first serious, and so-far successful, BG campaign. I have intentionally focused on AO due to my first (aborted & CSA) experience on BG.

One suggestion: use detached skirmishers to the fullest to delay and distract and, sometimes, take out arty units or capture supply wagons and maybe even rout some big brigade from behind.

One still unanswered question about this game: why do I have to experiment so much to figure out the minimally acceptable force that can have a chance to succeed in this or that major battle?

(My own tentative answer: this is historical. I.e., this game is plunging us into the same kind of uncertainty that real CW generals experienced, such that they'd go into a battle wondering exactly what they were up against. They'd have to make decisions based on this uncertainty, for better or worse. I find that my own uncertainty really makes the game-play more awesome. Anyway, you can always re-boot a save and try again with a different force config.)

[Bramborough]

Thanks for the replies. I also found a youtube video where a dude came to 2nd BR with a very similar situation, created a skeleton 3rd Corps, and did just fine (I don't know what difficulty he was playing). Between the two, lol, I've talked myself down off the ledge. I think I'm going to create a third Corps of roughly same size (although not quality or combined-arms balance) of my existing two, and should work out. For that matter, not sure I need to do that at all; in the video I saw, I don't think the player's newly-created III Corps even came into play.

[Kristoph42]

NO you are not doing it wrong. It is possible to have 80 brigades at 2nd Bull Run. I have never done it. Army Org of 4 or 5 is comfortable for the first part of the battles. The key thing for both sides is to try to have an Army Organization of 6 by Gaine's Mill (you don't need it, but I try to position myself to have an Army Org of 6 by then). Just so you have 2 solid corps and a skelton or partial or even 1 brigade in a 3rd corps you will be fine. Once you get to and through Gaine's Mill / Malvern Hill you want to start making the 3rd corps stronger and by 2nd Bull Run you would like to have a solid division or two in the 3rd corps. At Antietam, you will need a decent 3rd corps.

[Americus Wickey]

I agree with comments above about deploying skirmishers to harass artillery units, to attack infantry from several angles at once (esp. flank & rear), and to delay marching units. Building your foot brigades to 1500+ (esp. 2000+) allows you to detach skirmishing groups large enough to do serious damage while surviving a long time.

RE your infantry gun selections, I would move up beyond the smoothbore muskets (farmer, springfield, palmetto) ASAP, as their accuracy is terrible, and their range is poor - you need huge brigades to inflict any real damage with these muskets and they tend to take huge losses when encountering units using rifles that shoot beyond 250 yards.

I do anything possible to move up quickly to rifles of higher accuracy and range, giving the most accurate/expensive rifles to units with the highest firearms score to improve their per-soldier killing efficiency. I buy better rifles by expending reputation points whenever possible, and give these to my best units in each corps. Units with lowest firearms scores get the worst rifles until they gain higher scores, and hand-off their to new units. I do keep a lot of smoothbore muskets in the armory, however, to temporarily assign to low-end units while rebuilding between battles and reassigning weapons to brigades according to firearm scores.

I often use the minor battles as "training sessions" for my least-experienced units, giving them better rifles for that battle, running them around to build stamina, making them shoot and melee as much as possible to gain firearm and melee points. By the next Grand Battle I end up with more one- and two-star units available (and higher-ranked officers too).

I always pick the "big bicep" stamina badge for infantry reaching 1-star status - to increase their stamina - and pick the sharpshooting badge when infantry achieve 2-star status, to increase their effective firepower. I do everything possible to keep 2-star infantry at a minimum 2-star level when rebuilding between battles, as dropping back to 1-star wipes out their firepower advantage.

Finally, I try to rout enemy infantry during battles - often with skirmisher/cavalry flank attacks - to capture as many rifles from them as possible.

[Malkor2]

The key point here is: No, you don't need to have 4 full Corps in order to win 2nd Bull Run. If you look at the Corps placement screen you will notice that two placement options are highlighted while the other two are greyed out. The highlighted ones are requirements that you must meet in order to play the battle while the greyed out ones are optional. If you have so many men you can bring them but it is highly unlikely, even on Colonel difficulty, to have that many units at that time. So all you really need for 2nd Bull Run (either as the Union or CSA) is two Corps. Most of the time i end up with a full 1st Corps (20 Brigades) and a smaller 2nd Corps with 5-10 Brigades.

At Antietam you will need to place 3 Corps on the map or you won't be able to start the battle. But that doesn't mean that these 3 Corps need to be of full size each. If you can go with 2 full Corps and put like 5 units in the 3rd Corps. If not then do whatever seems best for you. You will also see this with the Grand Battles in the future. You could place 5 or 6 Corps on the map...if only you had the men, arms and Officers (the most limiting factor for unit number) available. Just fill the highlighted placement options with your Corps and you will be fine.

[Scharny]

This is the closest i gotten to fill up 2nd Battle Of Bull Run.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/925920383108455847/F0D3EB8AEC3513DF8334F69A9776EB36C3B98F5C/
60 Brigades. I really dont see how it should be possible to go 85. maybe 70-75.
But 85. Uness the sizes are like 1000-1500 per infantry division.

[D-Dub]

I've just gone in (as CSA) with 20 and 25, but it's okay so far. Just got into phase 3 -- where my first reinforcements show up -- and everything is in hand. Then again, I'm ready for surprises from the AI. I also know that there'll be a big "re-boot" before the final phase, so I can prepare for that.

The thing is, if only there was a pop-up that said what Kristoph42 said above -- a few battles before Gaines Mill. Something like, "try to have an Army Organization of 6 before you reach the major battle at GM"? That would be helpful.

But I'm not complaining: this game encourages studying what's going on; it sort of forces us to be really careful, to really pay attention. I dig that. Plus, the mystery that comes along with almost every battle really adds to the FOG OF WAR effect. Awesome. Even when I get smashed and have to replay it all.

[Kristoph42]

@ Scharny . . . Just because you can fill up corps spots on the deployment, you don't need to fill them all.

This is my army at 2nd Bull Run

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1261467809

These are my corps.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1261468470

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1261468980

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1261469463

I have a lot of artillery. This battle is perfect for artillery, because you sit and defend mostly. You also get to defend just about all day. Your artillery batteries should all rack up about 750+kils (some will get up to 1,000+ kills) from the first corps and about 400+ kills from the second corp guns. You should counter attack locally when a chance opens up.

These were the results of my 2nd Bull Run.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1261500686

The numbers are a little off on my side. I didn't have a save of 2nd bull run prior to start, so I loaded up Manasas Depot, fast forwarded the battle, So I could get some screen shots for you to see.

You don't need to fill up all the deployment slots. You technically only need 2 corps to fight 2nd Bull Run. Just so you can put a corp into each deployment slot, is all that really matters. I don't know of anyone who brought 80 brigades to 2nd Bull Run.

@D-Dub . . .There are many experience players who have played hundreds and thousands of hours. If you have any questions about the game, start a discussion and someone will try to help you out. I have played the game for over 1,100+ hours (Its coming up on a year since I bought this game). The fog of war effect is awesome. I have played every battle up to Chickamauga at least dozen times and the AI still suprises me once in a while. That is what give this game good longevity.

Originally posted by Americus Wickey:

I often use the minor battles as "training sessions" for my least-experienced units, giving them better rifles for that battle, running them around to build stamina, making them shoot and melee as much as possible to gain firearm and melee points. By the next Grand Battle I end up with more one- and two-star units available (and higher-ranked officers too).

I always pick the "big bicep" stamina badge for infantry reaching 1-star status - to increase their stamina - and pick the sharpshooting badge when infantry achieve 2-star status, to increase their effective firepower. I do everything possible to keep 2-star infantry at a minimum 2-star level when rebuilding between battles, as dropping back to 1-star wipes out their firepower advantage.

That is a great mindset to have while playing this game and a very smart thing to do. Also, each battle adds morale to your units and more morale is good. I do the same thing although I alternate between the "Melee and Sharpshooting" badge depending upon the units stats.

[Bramborough]

Thanks again for all the comments and discussion. It worked out fine. I created a III Corps and went in with 45 brigades; plenty enough. Newly-formed rookie III Corps did quite well, performing yeoman service on the left and rolling the Rebel line northwards from town, while I Corps supported by portions of II Corps fixed the stronger enemy elements in place along the rail axis.

Lol, now my challenge is to navigate through the Maryland campaign. Colonel difficulty or no, that Stone Mountain "minor" battle is a beast. And Antietam looms rather scary on the near horizon.

The central conundrum occupying my army-organization attention right now is apportionment of my few veteran brigades, and distribution of more rifles throughout the army. Mainly, I don't want to put the good weapons in raw recruits' hands, but neither do I want whole sections of the battlefield with only smoothbores either. My current thought is to move around brigades such that each division has (at least) one 1-star Lorenz/equivalent-equipped rifle brigade. The drawback is that this dilutes the I Corps (especially its 1st Division) quite a bit. I still have my "pet" brigades, but the "pet division" is broken up.

[jlb2600]

I know your post is about union armies but i play only confederacy. I will share my army composition and tactics. (This should work for union too)
First of all, i always play on major general and am able win every battle (even antietam) with this army organization.
I base my army composition on the Gettysburgh order of battle as historically correct as possible. (You can look up the order of battle online for each battle) then model your armies from there. By Fredricksburgh you should be able to field over 70000 men and good cannon with rifled muskets.
So for example when i create a new brigade for example Kershaws Brigade. I will call it
I/1st Kershaws Brig. (SC) (2138). This means 1st corps, 1st division, leaders name as it was at Gettysburgh, state they're from, and total number of troops that should be in the brigade. (As historically correct from Gettysburgh campaign.)
Lets say Kershaws brigade takes 325 casulaties in any given battle. I take original brigade size of 2138 and divide it by 3 to spread out veteran and rookie replacements. 250 rookies and 125 veterans brings you back up to full strength without sacrificing to much experience. (your troops will still level up over time.) You can save lots of money over time by also using good captured muskets and cannons on your best brigades and giving their old guns to newly formed units. (should be obvious)
This is just the way I play. Got lots more tips and tricks if anyone finds this useful.

[Bramborough]

Good tip; it never occurred to me to do a partial veteran/rookie rebuild.

I like your naming convention. I came up with something similar (although much simpler) just trying to keep divisions straight on the battlefield. Each brigade has a 3-digit number, and also noted in parentheses whethe rifle-armed or not. So III Corps, 2nd Division, 2nd Brigade armed with 1855's would be "322 Inf (Rifle)". Not very historical, but it works. I toyed with naming Divisions by states instead, with I Corps all New England, II Corps mid-Atlantic, and III Corps midwestern. Would still achieve same goal, and the names would sound more historical (although the OOB still wouldn't be anywhere close).

[Caramirdan]

Originally posted by Bramborough:

Good tip; it never occurred to me to do a partial veteran/rookie rebuild.

I like your naming convention. I came up with something similar (although much simpler) just trying to keep divisions straight on the battlefield. Each brigade has a 3-digit number, and also noted in parentheses whethe rifle-armed or not. So III Corps, 2nd Division, 2nd Brigade armed with 1855's would be "322 Inf (Rifle)". Not very historical, but it works. I toyed with naming Divisions by states instead, with I Corps all New England, II Corps mid-Atlantic, and III Corps midwestern. Would still achieve same goal, and the names would sound more historical (although the OOB still wouldn't be anywhere close).

Following your topic shift of your own thread, I'll add: if you want historical, a player can use Union corps symbols, particularly ● for I Corps, ♣ for II Corps, ♦ for III Corps, Δ for IV Corps, and finally ✠ for V Corps. I'll name the unit in II Corps, 3rd Div, 2 Bde under Semmes with Harper's Ferry rifles as "♣3/2 HF Semmes" which for me is easier to see on the field than what I had done ages ago with roman numerals.

[Bramborough]

Lol yeah I did let the thread meander a bit, didn't I? Eh, it's still all under the general topic of army organization & management, so it's fine.

I just did the partial veteran/rookie recruitment thing after Antietam. Great way to preserve the perks (although still modestly losing some stats) at minimal cost. Saved enough to buy rifles for a couple more units.

[D-Dub]

This has been helpful for me -- thanks for starting it, Bramborough. And many thanks too, Kristoph42, for the special encouragement.

I just (as CSA, yes) finished Fredericksburg, using 20 - 20 - 20 for the 3 corps slots. It went really well; in fact, it was suspiciously easy. But there was, once again, a brilliant (and surprising, based on previous exp) AI move: flooding my left flank at Prospect Hill, including what looked like a diversion on the right flank and beaucoup reinforcements from the north that sustained the left-flank move well beyond the first assault. Totally unexpected; hairy moments followed; detached skirmishers saved the day by hitting some flanks in timely fashion. What a pleasure.

Back to AO: I have been sitting at 6 for a while now. Since just before 2nd Bull Run. I'm wondering: has anyone identified the "phases" for best AO in some general way? As in, reach 3 before such-and-such battle; then make sure to get 6 before 2nd Bull Run; then of course get to x before Richmond/Washington; etc.? I suppose it would differ for USA and CSA...