Make the Fayetteville a skirmisher weapon

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

The thing was designed as a "artillery rifle" with the '33 barrel unlike the more common '40 barrels for infantry muskets, So it only makes sense to have skirmishers use it instead of infantry. At least those ♥♥♥♥ at reenachments are constantly whining about guys in the infantry line using the artillery rifles anyways.

[CrashToDesktop]

I want skirmishers to use infantry rifles instead of cavalry carbines. Everything from the M1841 Mississippi to the Fayetteville, as these fit their intended purpose much better than rapid-fire carbines. Carbines have no place in playstyle of dedicated Skirmishers, who should really be called Sharpshooters.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The Soldier:

I want skirmishers to use infantry rifles instead of cavalry carbines. Everything from the M1841 Mississippi to the Fayetteville, as these fit their intended purpose much better than rapid-fire carbines. Carbines have no place in playstyle of dedicated Skirmishers, who should really be called Sharpshooters.

Skirmishers carried shorter rifles and breech loaders because they had to be able to load their gun from a position other than standing. Plus you can already break off skirmishers from infantry.

[CrashToDesktop]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Neesan Addict/Superior Siscon:

Skirmishers carried shorter rifles and breech loaders because they had to be able to load their gun from a position other than standing. Plus you can already break off skirmishers from infantry.

Napeolonic skirmishers (or "Jager" as the Prussian skirmishers were called who rose to fame) were armed with short rifles. British ones in particular had the Baker rifle.

However, skirmishers in the American Civil War were more often than not just regular infantry infantry. Most infantrymen on both sides had skirmishing drilled into them during training, so they could all take the positions required should the opportuinity arise. At the start there were dedicated skirmisher companies, but that was phased out in favor of training everyone to be a skirmisher. This mean that 99% of the time, the American Civl War skirmisher would be armed with a regular infantry rifle like the Pattern 1853 Enfield or M1861 Springfield.

The other 1% of the time were sharpshooters. These men would be the best shots in a unit compiled into a dedicated sharpshooter unit, sometimes ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, sometimes not, sometimes armed with more unique weapons. The most famous of these being Berdan's Sharpshooters, the 1st US Sharpshooters, who wore a green version of the regular Union outfit with no brass fittings for the first part of the war and were armed with Sharps Rifles (you can find this unit at 2nd Bull Run and Chancellorsville in particular in UGCW, and both armed with the proper weaponry). Confederate sharpshooters also existed, and could also be armed with imported weapons like the Whitworth.

So, in short, short rifles are virtually nonexistant in the American Civil War, save for last-ditch Confederate made rifles because they lacked long enough pieces of wood. Though you'll still find the imported Pattern 1861 Enfield in the arms of the Cavalry in UGCW.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The Soldier:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Neesan Addict/Superior Siscon:

Skirmishers carried shorter rifles and breech loaders because they had to be able to load their gun from a position other than standing. Plus you can already break off skirmishers from infantry.

Napeolonic skirmishers (or "Jager" as the Prussian skirmishers were called who rose to fame) were armed with short rifles. British ones in particular had the Baker rifle.

However, skirmishers in the American Civil War were more often than not just regular infantry infantry. Most infantrymen on both sides had skirmishing drilled into them during training, so they could all take the positions required should the opportuinity arise. At the start there were dedicated skirmisher companies, but that was phased out in favor of training everyone to be a skirmisher. This mean that 99% of the time, the American Civl War skirmisher would be armed with a regular infantry rifle like the Pattern 1853 Enfield or M1861 Springfield.

The other 1% of the time were sharpshooters. These men would be the best shots in a unit compiled into a dedicated sharpshooter unit, sometimes ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, sometimes not, sometimes armed with more unique weapons. The most famous of these being Berdan's Sharpshooters, the 1st US Sharpshooters, who wore a green version of the regular Union outfit with no brass fittings for the first part of the war and were armed with Sharps Rifles (you can find this unit at 2nd Bull Run and Chancellorsville in particular in UGCW, and both armed with the proper weaponry). Confederate sharpshooters also existed, and could also be armed with imported weapons like the Whitworth.

So, in short, short rifles are virtually nonexistant in the American Civil War, save for last-ditch Confederate made rifles because they lacked long enough pieces of wood. Though you'll still find the imported Pattern 1861 Enfield in the arms of the Cavalry in UGCW.

Nah not really, There were a lot of dedicated short rifle armed troops, The Richmond Rifle and Fayetteville rifle were almost exclusively produced as the "artillery rifle" model to save on resources, Not to mention a large number of imported muskets like the Pattern 1861 carbine, Also the Union had dedicated Zouaves and mounted riflemen that would be using carbine muskets like the 1863 zouave rifle.

[CrashToDesktop]

There's a difference between making a short rifle because you're short on material and issuing it to any kind of troop and making a short rifle specifically for skirmishers and issuing it only to skirmishers (like the Baker rifle).

Very basic research on the 1863 Zouave Rifle tells me that it was never issued. So out the door with that one. But that's besides the point, if you're going to add the Fayetteville as a Skirmisher weapon, you might as well remove the rest of the carbines from skirmishers and add in all the rest of the Infantry's rifles.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The Soldier:

There's a difference between making a short rifle because you're short on material and issuing it to any kind of troop and making a short rifle specifically for skirmishers and issuing it only to skirmishers (like the Baker rifle).

Very basic research on the 1863 Zouave Rifle tells me that it was never issued. So out the door with that one. But that's besides the point, if you're going to add the Fayetteville as a Skirmisher weapon, you might as well remove the rest of the carbines from skirmishers and add in all the rest of the Infantry's rifles.

You shouldn't use wikipedia as a source lol, There should be carbine variants of the infantry rifles available for skirmishers, Like with the Spencer and the Enfield, That is actually something i would like to see.

[CrashToDesktop]

Did I say I used Wikipedia as a source? There isn't even a page for the M1863 Zouave Rifle, just so you know. I cross referenced about three or four difference pages mentioning the obsure rifle, all said it wasn't issued.

Carbine variants for things that existed, sure. Which is virtually nothing aside from the M1861 Enfield (which is effectively a shorter M1853 Enfield with tighter rifling that actually provided for better accurate despite being shorter) that you can equip Cavalry with.

But as I said before, skirmishers were not issued with short rifles in the American Civil War. They either used their own weapons (Union sharpshooters often brought their extremely heavy target rifles, represented by the J.F. Brown in UGCW) or used the weapons that were issed to them, usually a bog-standard Enfield or Springfield or something more special, like the Sharps Rifle or Whitworth Rifle. If you can find actual photographic or anecdotal evidence that short rifles were issued to infantrymen in the Civil War, please bring it up - because I have yet to see any photos. Remember, you're the prosecutor here.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The Soldier:

Did I say I used Wikipedia as a source? There isn't even a page for the M1863 Zouave Rifle, just so you know. I cross referenced about three or four difference pages mentioning the obsure rifle, all said it wasn't issued.

Carbine variants for things that existed, sure. Which is virtually nothing aside from the M1861 Enfield (which is effectively a shorter M1853 Enfield with tighter rifling that actually provided for better accurate despite being shorter) that you can equip Cavalry with.

But as I said before, skirmishers were not issued with short rifles in the American Civil War. They either used their own weapons (Union sharpshooters often brought their extremely heavy target rifles, represented by the J.F. Brown in UGCW) or used the weapons that were issed to them, usually a bog-standard Enfield or Springfield or something more special, like the Sharps Rifle or Whitworth Rifle. If you can find actual photographic or anecdotal evidence that short rifles were issued to infantrymen in the Civil War, please bring it up - because I have yet to see any photos. Remember, you're the prosecutor here.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/06/article-2385208-1B2890D5000005DC-640_964x1278.jpg

K, I googled "Civil war Zouave" and this came up. That's clearly a 2 band artillery rifle.

[CrashToDesktop]

That is an M1841 Mississippi Rifle, as seen by the sword bayonet and placement of the bands. It was, by military terms, a regular infantry rifle, and issued as such, but most soldiers considered it a short rifle (for obvious reasons). Confederate infantry used it whenever they could over smoothbores, but it wasn't nearly as good as the more modern minie rifles like the Pattern 1853 or M1861.

And if that isn't an M1841 Mississippi, please identify it correctly.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The Soldier:

That is an M1841 Mississippi Rifle, as seen by the sword bayonet and placement of the bands. It was, by military terms, a regular infantry rifle, and issued as such, but most soldiers considered it a short rifle (for obvious reasons). Confederate infantry used it whenever they could over smoothbores, but it wasn't nearly as good as the more modern minie rifles like the Pattern 1853 or M1861.

And if that isn't an M1841 Mississippi, please identify it correctly.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/civilwarantiques/cwimages/new_york_armed_enfield_2_band_rifles_saber_bayonet.jpg 1858 Enfield derptard, Here's another picture for you.

[CrashToDesktop]

Since when did I become a derptard? Rather rude of you.

Also, if I may say, at least in British units around the same time, Sargents were armed with 2-band Enfields instead of the standard 3-band. Presumably because they wouldn't be the ones firing it all the time, instead directing it, and having a lighter weapon would be appreciated. Not issued specifically to skirmisher units.

Zouaves weren't specifically skirmisher units. They may have employed light infanty tactics, but they were usually employed in the same manner as line infantry - look no further than the Red Legged Devils charging up Henry House Hill four times, which is certainly something that skirmishers wouldn't do.

[cromagnonman2k]

The photos I can find of a 2-band Enfield and a “Zouave” rifle are nearly indistinguishable - yet the “Mississippi” rifle has a different forend cap.

The point that rapid-fire skirmishers are inauthentic, though, is well-made. My guess is that it’s present primarily for the purpose of dismounted cav, which the AI apparently can’t mount/dismount. It also seems that arming regular infantry with repeaters is a waste because of their generally-ragged volleys limiting their actual rate-of-fire. Per the Casey (who was there) manual, the usual fire pattern was at-will rather than by volley, and this was especially true for skirmishers. Makes the design decision to employ volley-fire exclusively kind of unrealistic, versus the mechanic in Sid Meiers Gettysburg where volley fire could be used but was not standard. Since repeater-armed infantry can’t deliver a real fussilade of fire, they’re something of a waste of money.

[CrashToDesktop]

Diposting pertama kali oleh cromagnonman2k:

The photos I can find of a 2-band Enfield and a “Zouave” rifle are nearly indistinguishable - yet the “Mississippi” rifle has a different forend cap.

Wouldn't worry too much about the Zouave rifle, as it was never issued according to the half-dozen or so sources I've found talking about it's brief history. But still, as I mentioned above, Zouave units may have used light infantry tactics, but were employed as regular line infantry in the larger battle.

If Skirmishers are supposed to represent dismounted cavalry for the AI, then just give them those specific weapons for when they're supposed to be for the AI and don't hinder the player with such useless weapons - the devs have already shown they can give units weapons they couldn't otherwise use, like the non-saber, skirmisher variant of the Colt M1855s that JEB Stuart's Cavalry come equipped with at Newport News or a 105-man Union Infantry unit armed with J.F. Browns at the Pickett's Charge custom battle - so it still confuses me greatly why Skirmishers have these breach loading carbines. Give me rifles, all the rifles!

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The Soldier:

Since when did I become a derptard? Rather rude of you.

Also, if I may say, at least in British units around the same time, Sargents were armed with 2-band Enfields instead of the standard 3-band. Presumably because they wouldn't be the ones firing it all the time, instead directing it, and having a lighter weapon would be appreciated. Not issued specifically to skirmisher units.

Zouaves weren't specifically skirmisher units. They may have employed light infanty tactics, but they were usually employed in the same manner as line infantry - look no further than the Red Legged Devils charging up Henry House Hill four times, which is certainly something that skirmishers wouldn't do.

Oh yeah dude those are totally British NCOs in their American uniforms. Also the first picture of the zouave with a 2 band artillery rifle is from the 11th new york. So nice job derping on that.

[CrashToDesktop]

Never said that's what was in the picture, only what it was initially designed for by the British.