Union autoloss at Shiloh: Bug?

[Robyn, Who Smiles at Death]

So I was playing through the union campaign, playing the battle of Shiloh, and something really weird happened. During the first few sections I held the confederates back, holding all points. After the church/hornets nest part it told me to retreat to Pittsburg Landing. I began an orderly retreat. I had not be too seriously pressed at the hornets nest and I had vision/a line running mostly as far as possible to the left and right, so I had intended to do a slow retreat back, keeping skirmishers and some brigades in contact and hopscotching back, throwing a volley or two but pulling back in the face of determined contact. Sort of a bounding overwatch sort of movement backwards to the defenses near the landing while my reserves went ahead to get dug in.

As I began to pull back, just a little bit after I control had been restored to me and I was given the objective to pull back to the landing, I got a message that confederates had taken the landing. I tried to run some cav back to see what the hell was going on but only got a quick glimpse of a 1700ish manpower confed regiment behind the defensive emplacements before I got a message saying I had lost the battle due to failing to hold the landing. Any idea what happened? For what its worth if federal troops were supposed to spawn back at the landing none did.

Also if it matters I only had about 20 brigades at that point, as opposed to the 40 I could bring. (I am aware I prob was undermanned, I was likely investing too much in the troops as opposed to getting numbers but hey, it had been working fine.)

[Robyn, Who Smiles at Death]

Other data points: It was my first run at the campaign so I had been running on Colonel difficulty.

[Wright29]

the way the transitions work can be weird and it's possible that they enemy can slip through your lines. It's not an auto-loss scenario, but a commonly frustrating case where a single bit of the map covered by fog of war can lose you the whole scenario despite your army performing well.

[ceutermark]

Thats why for Shiloh as the union when it says fallback i dig in my heels and make the rebels pay for trying to attack me and when the second group of troops from the army of the ohio i put them in pittsburg landing to make sure if a unit did get behind my lines it can't take the landing and when the rebels focus their attack on the hornets nest i surround them with troops from the church and crush the rebel army on the 1st day.

[Robyn, Who Smiles at Death]

I was bringing it up because I am not sure there was even enough time for a unit to run past. Like it almost seemed like they spawned or something behind me and captured it, and like I could not run my infantry back fast enough to contest.

[ceutermark]

Originally posted by Robyn Nailo:

I was bringing it up because I am not sure there was even enough time for a unit to run past. Like it almost seemed like they spawned or something behind me and captured it, and like I could not run my infantry back fast enough to contest.

Though i've never had that issue where a rebel units all of a sudden shows up in the landing i always put the 2nd set of units from the army of the ohio in the fortifications around the the landing just to make sure that don't happen and if your troops have a solid line no rebels should slip by unless a cav unit does but from what you said it sounds like a wierd bug or something.

[Sagit84]

It is not a bug. You had a CSA cavalary slipped through your lines. They do that everytime if you don't keep them in check.

[Robyn, Who Smiles at Death]

It wasn't cav, as I mentioned there was a inf brigade of about 1700 that I saw. And if its not a bug, its likely something that should be adressed, seems pretty unreasonable to be stopping the attack cold and then suddenly losing the battle shortly after it changes objectives on you.

If you have the full 40 brigades you can bring to the fight, do some of them spawn in at the defences by the ferry point?

[Imbezile]

Originally posted by Robyn Nailo:

It wasn't cav, as I mentioned there was a inf brigade of about 1700 that I saw. And if its not a bug, its likely something that should be adressed, seems pretty unreasonable to be stopping the attack cold and then suddenly losing the battle shortly after it changes objectives on you.

If you have the full 40 brigades you can bring to the fight, do some of them spawn in at the defences by the ferry point?

The last of your reinforcements spawn reasonably close to the landing yes.

In this case I suspect you missed a confed brigade flanking around your defences on the far right or far left. They do that sometimes especially post 0.9. No confed brigades spawn on your rear or flanks. Infact no confed brigades deploy after the deployment of their reserves in the eastern half of the map. (3 inf + 3 arty in the last wave before the hornets nest phase.)

Can you remember which brigade was in the landing? Knowing that I could tell you exactly where it went past you.

[Robyn, Who Smiles at Death]

I wish I would have taken a screen shot of the name of the unit. I genuinely dont recall, sorry. It just felt odd as I don't know that I could have actually *run* my units back fast enough, never mind getting them back in time to contest. The game should likely either hold some of your stuff in reserve or spawn a union unit back there or something to prevent this sort of thing. It's not like I was makeing choices as to where my reenforcements were coming in.

To be clear I had not like pulled units out of the area or something, there was never anything union anywhere near save the gunboats.

Its not as if I couldn't have rousted them from the area if my units, which were already on their way, had gotten there, and I don't think I even had access to that area till the objective changed. All in all it was quite frustrating and felt more than a little unreasonable. Don't get me wrong, I am loving the game so far, this just was really frustrating.

[Sagit84]

Originally posted by Robyn Nailo:

I wish I would have taken a screen shot of the name of the unit. I genuinely dont recall, sorry. It just felt odd as I don't know that I could have actually *run* my units back fast enough, never mind getting them back in time to contest. The game should likely either hold some of your stuff in reserve or spawn a union unit back there or something to prevent this sort of thing. It's not like I was makeing choices as to where my reenforcements were coming in.

To be clear I had not like pulled units out of the area or something, there was never anything union anywhere near save the gunboats.

Its not as if I couldn't have rousted them from the area if my units, which were already on their way, had gotten there, and I don't think I even had access to that area till the objective changed. All in all it was quite frustrating and felt more than a little unreasonable. Don't get me wrong, I am loving the game so far, this just was really frustrating.

You are the general. You should keep some reserve out there dear Sir not the AI ;) Believe me you won't make this mistake ever again after this screw up. As you know I had a same problem with CSA cavalary my first playthrough.

[Imbezile]

Just remember to deploy some detached skirmishers to watch your flanks next time. Having a brigade of mounted infantry in the reserve also makes a world of difference. And note. None of the CPs other than Pitt landing count for anything in Shiloh. If you are in proper defensive positions and can keep the confeds in check nothing forces you to retreat. Let the rebs bleed themselves dry and counterattack with the AoO reinforcements to minimize core casualties.

[Robyn, Who Smiles at Death]

Originally posted by Sagit84:

Originally posted by Robyn Nailo:

I wish I would have taken a screen shot of the name of the unit. I genuinely dont recall, sorry. It just felt odd as I don't know that I could have actually *run* my units back fast enough, never mind getting them back in time to contest. The game should likely either hold some of your stuff in reserve or spawn a union unit back there or something to prevent this sort of thing. It's not like I was makeing choices as to where my reenforcements were coming in.

To be clear I had not like pulled units out of the area or something, there was never anything union anywhere near save the gunboats.

Its not as if I couldn't have rousted them from the area if my units, which were already on their way, had gotten there, and I don't think I even had access to that area till the objective changed. All in all it was quite frustrating and felt more than a little unreasonable. Don't get me wrong, I am loving the game so far, this just was really frustrating.

You are the general. You should keep some reserve out there dear Sir not the AI ;) Believe me you won't make this mistake ever again after this screw up. As you know I had a same problem with CSA cavalary my first playthrough.

*Miss

You miss my point, I am not in full control of the depoloyment of my troops, or where they come in. Had I been given the option I would have, there is no option, other then just knowing ahead of time that a battle will procede in a specific way, and that I need to deploy counter intuitively. (IE hang troops out at the far rear of my line, well out of where they could actually support the battle, to run back as soon as the game lets me even see the ferry area. Instead my reserves were senseably placed where they could help, or in fall back positions to cover a retreat.) The problem is one of game design. I didn't make a series of choices that lead me to this failing, the game made those choices, and the design precipitated the issue. The gradual reveal of the map, and the spawning of a capture point well to the rear of my lines without any troops there is not something I could have planned for without haveing already played the battle and knowing that it would screw me on that. That is poor design, or more broadly, a bug brought about as a result of going into the battle with fewer brigades then the game had been designed around.

To @Imbezile's point: I actually had both normal and detached skirmishers, and cav sniffing around my flanks, and had been intentionally keeping in contact with CSA elements as I began the retreat to try and prevent me losing track of them. I tend to be a bit overzelous when it comes to recon. I mean clearly if something did not spawn I must have missed something, but I feel like there is a good chance that the hole was created by there suddenly being more available land as the map opens up, and something either getting spawned past th e line earlier on, or moving through before I got skirmishers in position. I had had a mounted reserve, though certanly not one that could engage head on a full CSA inf battalion. I had been doing a something of a... for lack of a better term RP run, and so had shyed away from tactics sort of playing to the elements that are more gamelike, including trying to preserve my core forces at the expense of elements whose casualties I might know don't matter. It was a luxury being halfway competent and playing on the easier setting afforded me. (To be clear: Not trashing people for those techniques, esp on the higher settings it seems to be required if reports are to be believed. Just not what I had wanted to do on this run)

My point more broadly is that its not that I can't think of a workaround, its more that it seems like a design or implementation glitch that should be looked at. Its more that slightly a-historical, and can lead to a frustrating experience. Me worrying about CSA brigades behind my lines should be tied into specific problems in my line or the like, and the difficulties it causes me should be more tangeable, my artillery battery coming under assault, my luggage/supplies being captured/destroyed, or a sudden rear assault on my position, ect. It shouldnt be having to worry that if I have a tiny hole for a short time that I will lose the battle suddenly because the AI rushed a cap point that my army had not even had the chance to reach, and that I had only very recently even learned the exisitance of.

[Wright29]

I mean play it again and then see if it's reproduceable. Otherwise it's just one instance of bad luck, which by no means translates into a bug or the game being broken.