Issues about Artilleries: Whitworth 12pdr breechloading gun and Tredegar 10pdr gun

[Hrubeshova]

I'm the auther of Weapon chart and I updated it according to 0.75! Please check it.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=839842511

I found another issue about artillery

1. Whitworth 12 pounder bleechloading gun
   I point out the most obvious mistake: It is Confed's gun, not Union's gun. Possibly do you wonder why Whitworth target rife is only available to the Rebel although Whitworth 12 pdr gun is only to Union? You are right, and Devs are wrong. Both are imported items from UK by blockade runners.
   
   I'm also doubtful of its parameters. This is them.
   
   Cost: 2700
   Damage: 38
   Range: 2400
   Fire Rate: 30
   Accuracy: 15
   
   Whitworth 12 pdr gun also use poligonal rifling and special ammunitions like Whitworth target rifle.
   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Armstrong_Whitworth.JPG
   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:American_Civil_War_artillery_ammunition_-_IMG_1552.JPG
   This is the reason why Whitworth 12 pdr gun has such a high accuracy.
   Additionally, Whitworth 12pdr gun is a bleechloading gun, which would allow pretty high reloading.
   
   However, in this game... sigh
   Its range is OK. The problem is its accuracy. In fact accuracy of Whitworth in this game is the worst level as a rifle gun. And its fire rate isn't the best of all arties... The best one is 10pdr Ordnance, which is MUZZLELOADER. Well, devs, do you know what muzzleloading and bleechloading mean? You definetely ruin this exciting age of explosively evolution of firearms! I also suggest that it cost should be increased much more because of its special ammunition and very limited number as imports by blockage runners.
   
   BTW this is another issue which I faced when I write the chart: What does "Accuracy" mean? It is obvious that accuracy is related to dispersion of points of impact. The problem is what distance the size of pattern of impact points is measured. If at each's edge of effective range, it is slightly convincing that 12pdr Whitworth and 20 pdr Parrot has the worst accuracy as a rifle guns, although Whitworth's accuracy still looks underestimated. However, if at the same distance to all weapons, accuracy of Whitworth is insanely underestimated. Although I never expect devs' answer to my question, this problem needs to be considered.
   
   
2. 10 pounder Tredegar gun
   Its issue is pretty simple: What is 10pdr Tredegar gun?
   "Tredegar" probably means Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond, but I can never found such a original gun by Tredegar Iron Works. What is it? Is it a product of devs' imagination?

[Luunyrkki]

Tredegar is a good gun, is what it is. I too would like to see the formulas opened and explaiuned a bit. Maybe some math genius from here can point out the errors that clearly are there.

[CrashToDesktop]

The Witworth's breachloading system, being the first of it's kind, often fouled up or jammed and the crew was unable to open it, forcing it into a muzzleloading cannon. Also; it's accuracy in the game is complete ♥♥♥♥, 15 is the same as the 20pdr Parrott, seeing that cannon can't hit the broadside of a barn. No idea why. Finally, the Union is meant to get the upper hand with access to most weapons, and the Union did have a battery of 12pdr Whitworths from before the war (although it was relegated to the defense of Washington after 1862).

You're starting to sound a bit more cocky now. :P

[Aurion]

The Tredegar 10lb is the representative for the Tredegar Iron Works' ordinance rifle production.

They started with cast-iron unbanded 3-inchers, but moved over to closer copies of the 10lb Parrott (i.e. with a breech band) after some early examples had issues with breech bursts under sustained fire. Needless to say, having your artillery piece burst when put under too much strain was detrimental to the morale of the gunners. So banded guns became the norm.

Functionally, they occupied a similar niche to the Richmond/Fayetteville. They were similar to the 10lb Parrotts and evolved from the same ancestors... but not quite the same.

Just as the Richmond and Fayetteville were similar in many ways to the 1861 Springfield... but not quite identical to each other or to the Springfields (and all three were direct descendants of the 1855).

The Tredegar works also produced smoothbores, and its total artillery output during the war was ~1,100 pieces as I recall.

They had a reputation for high-quality work- albeit marred by the failures of the unbanded rifles- but like other quality-focused projects like the Fayetteville Arsenal they couldn't produce anywhere near enough munitions to satisfy demand (Fayetteville's output was ~500 rifles per month) so the usual expedients of blockade running and captured artillery pieces were far more common.

Fun random fact about 10lbers: There were variants of the 1861 Parrott that had both 2.9 and 3.0 inch bore. Made supply a bit of a chore on occasion, to the point where federal field batteries were required to only use the 2.9 (74mm) variant until 1864 for the sake of simplicity- it wasn't until the 1863 version of the Parrott was adopted that the calibers were fully standardized at 3 inches.

The Confederates really loved their 3-inchers, domestic or captured, but they also (obviously) captured and used plenty of examples of the 2.9inch which made supplying Confederate artillery units that much more of a pain in the backside.

-

If you really want to nitpick the devs' accuracy, it should be "Tredegar 3-inch".

Ordinance rilfes used 8 and 9lb rounds as "standard".

Of course, that's nitpicking to a ridiculous extent- not least of which because 3-inchers could and did also use 10lb rounds out of neccessity. And could/would use them as a main load for sustained fire if they had a breech band like the Parrott and its southern imitatiors/contemporaries/knockoffs/whatever you want to call 'em. So even then it wouldn't work. Calling them Tredegar 10s is the simplest way to express what they are.

Artillery in the Civil War was kind of a mess. Be thankful the game doesn't model mixed batteries.

[CrashToDesktop]

Originally posted by Aurion:

Fun random fact about 10lbers: There were variants of the 1861 Parrott that had both 2.9 and 3.0 inch bore. Made supply a bit of a chore on occasion, to the point where federal field batteries were required to only use the 2.9 (74mm) variant until 1864 for the sake of simplicity- it wasn't until the 1863 version of the Parrott was adopted that the calibers were fully standardized at 3 inches.

The Union actually fielded both 2.9 and 3 inch Parrott guns for the first 3 years of the war. There's an account at Gettysburg were a battery of 2.9 inch Parrott guns were accidentally issues 3 inch ammunition, and thus were out of the battle for the first day. After Gettysburg, however, the Ordnance Department got tired of these logistical issues and ordered all Parrott guns be rebored to 3 inches so all Union rifled artillery had a consistent caliber.

Fun fact: the HUD image for the Parrott Gun is a post-1863 model, as it has the Ordnance shape to it (the Ordnance Department required cannon to be smooth without sharp angle to prevent weak points from forming), and as a result has no muzzle swell. Funnily enough, the 20pdr Parrott Gun HUD has a muzzle swell, yet in real life it did not.

Still looking forward to 4.5in Siege Rifles and 30pdr Parrott Rifles at some point. :) Even if it's only at the Battles of Washington and Richmond, where we have to face them down in the outlying forts.

[Aurion]

IIRC, the issue of 3.0inch to the battery at Gettysburg was just a supply foulup and the batteries in service were all using 2.9s. I believe they got ordinance rifle ammunition because someone fouled up wrt whether the battery was using Parrotts or ordinance rifles, rather than which type of Parrott.

[CrashToDesktop]

Originally posted by Aurion:

IIRC, the issue of 3.0inch to the battery at Gettysburg was just a supply foulup and the batteries in service were all using 2.9s. I believe they got ordinance rifle ammunition because someone fouled up wrt whether the battery was using Parrotts or ordinance rifles, rather than which type of Parrott.

More reason to rebore everything to 3 inch. :) But yea, seems like there were no 3 inch Parrott guns until 1863.
https://markerhunter.wordpress.com/artillery/rifled-field-artillery/
This site in general is a treasure trove for artillery, by the way.