Issue about weapon 2: historical incorrectness of sharpshooter's weapon

[Hrubeshova]

I'm the author of weapon chart guide and I wrote a report discussing issues about weapons in UG:CW. If you want to read it, check out http://steamcommunity.com/app/502520/discussions/0/133258593397001495/

I investigated weapon parameters futher and found several historical incorretness on Target Rifles, which are used by sharpshooters... Yes, sharpshooters. do you hate sharpshooters? --- yep, I agree with you. It is a problem about scaling, but Target rifles have more issues.
As to their parameters, check my guide.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=839842511

1. Sharps rifle: give it much more fire rate and get rid of its accuracy
   Sharps is standard version of Sharps carbine. It is a BREECHLOADER. See its fire rate in this game... 45? Is its fire rate worse than one of Springfield M1855, which is muzzleloader??????
   
   Sigh... Devs, you should check whether that rifle is breechloader or muzzleloader before putting fire rate parameter to it. I think its appropriate fire rate is between 80 and 90.
   
   Additionally I suspect that its accuracy is too high. The reason why Berdan chose Sharps as his men's weapon is the fact that it has more accuracy than other standard rifles. However, it came from Sharps manufacture had good production line, not from its special trait like polygonal rifling of Whitworth or very short wooden forend of J.F.Brown. I think its appropriate accuracy is between 75 and 80.
   
   My suggestion would give Sharps a unique trait as "high rate sniper rifle", not to regard it as just a lower rank sniper rifle. It would give this game a bit more replayability...
   
   
2. Melee ability of Target rifle with TS
   Melee ability of Target rifle with TS should be much more lower than one without TS, because men should hesitate to melee for fear of wrecking their fragile and expensive telescope. Melee of Whitworth (TS) and J.F.Brown should be between 30 and 35.
   
   Also skirmishers should have melee penalty in order to prevent AI's skirmishers from doing stupid charging, but it is another issue.
   
   
3. What is "Hunter"?
   This is the most serious issue about Target rifles. It says itself as "longrifle" and .69 caliber. I had thought it was American Longrifle, but its caliber is between .25 and .62. So "Hunter" is definetely not American Longrifle. --- What?? What is this rifle?
   
   My current conclusion is the following; Hunter is rifled old Springfield musket, whose caliber is .69. However, I hope that it will be replaced with American Longrifle, which is true standard hunter rifle in the days.

[CrashToDesktop]

1. For the Sharps, I don't think it's that the devs made it have a slow reload becuase they didn't know it was a breach loader - they knew very well the Sharps carbines were breachloaders - but rather for it to be the direct competitor to the Whitworth rifle (similar ranges, similar rate of fire, similar price, etc.). Hopefully it gets changed to be more in line with a breach loading rifle, though, with proper offset of course.

2. Agreed.

3. No idea, all I know is that it's got an impressive 450 range, terrible 25 accuracy, and an absolutely terrifying 87 melee rating. Actually pretty good for being the cheatest long-range skirmisher weapon.

As a side note - the "Farmer" musket is pretty much the Brown Bess, the British military musket. Same profile and it's actually a musket with a flintlock and not a caplock.

[Luunyrkki]

I think the main issue is that the weapon stats are the main determiner, where it should really be the soldiers. AFAIK, main issue isn't and wasn't with the gun hitting the point that was aimed; it was not knowing where to aim(ballistics and all that).

[Hrubeshova]

Originally posted by The Soldier:

As a side note - the "Farmer" musket is pretty much the Brown Bess, the British military musket. Same profile and it's actually a musket with a flintlock and not a caplock.

I think "Farmer" is a mix of stock Charleville musket and Springfield M1795, M1812 and M1816, because Farmer's calibre is .69 which is the same as theirs despite of .75 calibre of Brown Bess.

[CrashToDesktop]

Originally posted by Tokiedian:

I think "Farmer" is a mix of stock Charleville musket and Springfield M1795, M1812 and M1816, because Farmer's calibre is .69 which is the same as theirs despite of .75 calibre of Brown Bess.

If you look closely enough at the HUD image, you'll see the musket has the distinctive underside flat area (that the neither the Charleville nor the M1795 have) as well as a visible ramrod going down most of the length (that the Charleville does not have). It also doesn't have the double front barrel band of the Charleville or M1795.

It also gives rise to the "re-bore" variant, which re-bores the barrel from .75 caliber to .69 caliber, although the regular Farmer doesn't say it's .75 caliber due to the actual bullet being .69 caliber, same as the rest (do remember the Brown Bess had been in service for 100 years before then, and metalurgy technology had advanced far enough to produce more close-fitting barrels and bullets).

Also; I'm not so sure that the displayed stats actually corrolate to anything of the weapon's real stats. Just go look at the 20pdr Parrott and, despite all it's buffing, it's stats have stayed the same yet has undoublty improved since the start (although it's still terrible).

[Defiant Dan]

I think i can help here...i own a 1859 Sharps Cavalery Carbine and a cal 45 Tryon Target Rifle with Fast Twist...In Competition this Rifle is put into the "Whitworth" Discipline cause its equal to a Whitworth in Performance.

To reload the Sharps,you push a Lever Forward that opens the Barrel from Behind,you insert a Bullet of Brass or Paper,and then you push back the Lever again.Now you need to take a Percussion Cap and put it on the Nipple.
I can reload it in around 10 Seconds without rushing too much.
It uses large winged Percussion Caps (not the small "pot" like) which are easy to grab and handle,they have not nearly the danger of falling to the ground as the normal ones have.

The Effective Range of the Sharps Rifle and Carbine was tested at the School of Musketry.
Effective Range for the Infantery Rifle on Infantery Target was 1200 Yard,for the Carbine on Cavalery Target 900 Yard.Effective Range is when more then 50% of bullets hit.

Its a realy effective Weapon....and its extreme lethal
The 530 Grain Projectile was able to instant Kill a Buffallo,on Ranges where the Buffalo dont heard the Gunfire.
That allowed the Hunters to kill the whole Herd...the would look which animal is the leading alpha Animal,and then snipe it with a Sharps or a Rolling Block Rifle.
It would just fall down without pain noises and the other Animals dont get spooked.
And then they just open Fire and kill the whole Herd,as long as the leading Animal dont moves the Herd wont too...and since its dead...they are easy Prey to shoot...

The Sharps should reload fast...and it should be accurate....there is a reason why its so legendary...

The legendary Shot of Billy Dixon who sniped that Indian Chieftain on 1400 Yard was also scientificaly verified....the 50-90 Sharps used by Dixon has a Range of around 2 Miles and when the Bullet has reached this 2 Miles,it still carries more Energy than a 357 Revolver at the Muzzle....it was checked with Doppler Radars on a Military Site.

[Hrubeshova]

Originally posted by Weedburner:

I think i can help here...i own a 1859 Sharps Cavalery Carbine and a cal 45 Tryon Target Rifle with Fast Twist...In Competition this Rifle is put into the "Whitworth" Discipline cause its equal to a Whitworth in Performance.

BTW I think Tryon Target Rifle is more similar to J.F.Brown without telescope than Whitworth, because it has thik octagonal barrel and short wooden forend which removes influence coming from warp of wooden forend and gives it more accuracy, and Whitworth has a very rare trait, polygonal rifling, which needs special bullets.

Also I prefer to rename "J.F.Brown (TS)" a more general name like "Octagonal barrel Target Rifle (TS)", because J.F.Brown itself is rarer than Whitworth, among other Target Rifles with octagonal barrel and short wooden forend coming from various manufactures, and add "Octagonal barrel Target Rifle without TS",which would include your Tryon Target Rifle , and "Long rifle (Minié)", which uses Minié bullet instead of traditional rifle bullet, as new sharpshooter weapons.

My suggetion of rebalancing of sharpshooter weapon is;

Replace "Hunter" with "Long rifle (.45~.50)", rename "J.F.Brown (TS)" "Octagonal Barrel Target Rifle (TS)" and add "Octagonal Barrel Target Rifle" and "Long rifle (Minié)"

Fire Rate Ranking: Sharps >> OBTR > Whitworth > OBTR (TS) > Whitworth (TS) > Long rifle (Minié) >> Long rifle
(This is because I suppose polygonal rifling might makes reloading a bit difficult)
Accuracy Ranking: Whitworth (TS) > OBTR (TS) >Whitworth > OBTR > Sharps >> Long rifle > Long rifle (Minié)
(This is because I suppose polygonal rifling might be more effective than short wooden forend)
Range Ranking: Whitworth (TS) = OBTR (TS) > Whitworth = OBTR > Sharps > Long rifle = Long rifle (Minié)
Cost Ranking: Whitworth (TS) > OBTR (TS) >> Whitworth > OBTR >> Sharps >> Long rifle (Minié) > Long rifle
(This is because Whitworth is a rare imported weapon and needs special hexagonal bullets)
Melee Ranking: Long rifle = Long rifle (Minié) >> OBTR > Whitworth >> Sharps >>> OBTR (TS) > Whitworth (TS)

I believe that more variations and forked tier tree of weapons will increase replayability than few weapons on poor linear tier tree.

[Brody]

The generic rifles are a genius way of representing what would have existed very prominently during the war.

Many soldiers would have brought their own rifles with them to fight.

Farmers, who might put less importance on their weapon, would likely have owned older model, smooth-bore muskets. The price you pay for the farmer musket is mostly for dynamic of the game, but could easily be explained away with the fact that you don't pay for any equipment but the rifle. Basically, 10$ for the footwear (if any), uniform (if any), food and training for the soldier, the rifle is, essentially, free.

The slightly more expensive "Re-bored Farmer" represents the miscellaneous weapons that were newer, in better condition, possibly even refitted with bayonet mounts, or made into rifles. The added cost is again expressly a game dynamic, but perhaps it's for a bayonet or some other cost that the government incurred upgrading or refitting these older weapons.

The "Hunter" represents a soldiers' rifle that enjoyed hunting (whatever his occupation might have been) and they would have likely put more emphasis on the selection, and upkeep of their weapon as any enthusiast would. Therefore the Hunter is simply a generic term applied to the fact that it was likely rifled for accuracy, well cared for, and intended to kill game.

But if you want historically accurate information as to what the most likely candidate for the "Hunter" rifle would be, it is probably Harper's Ferry Model 1816. They would have been attainable and well sought after weapons for their reliability, percussion cap upgrades, and their long, rifled barrels. They are .69 caliber and the most produced flintlock in history. Making them a cheap option for the discerning marksman of the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1816_Musket

[Hrubeshova]

Originally posted by Brody:

But if you want historically accurate information as to what the most likely candidate for the "Hunter" rifle would be, it is probably Harper's Ferry Model 1816. They would have been attainable and well sought after weapons for their reliability, percussion cap upgrades, and their long, rifled barrels. They are .69 caliber and the most produced flintlock in history. Making them a cheap option for the discerning marksman of the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1816_Musket

I'm sorry but I cannot find any evidence that Model 1816 Musket has rifling, although obviously "Hunter" has rifling. All documents I can found says it has SMOOTHBORE barrel...

[Brody]

I'm sorry but I cannot find any evidence that Model 1816 Musket has rifling, although obviously "Hunter" has rifling. All document I can found says it has SMOOTHBORE barrel...

My mistake. It totally wasn't produced with a rifled barrel. Rifling a barrel, however, became very common after the war of 1812 (at least in the United States). Most gunsmiths of the time could do it for a nominal fee, and by the time of the Mexican-American war the majority of muskets in the frontier were rifle-muskets. These would have been many different makes and models, and mostly re-bored for the rifling. It was much cheaper to buy a musket and have it re-bored than it was to buy a custom made rifle-musket (they weren't mass produced until the minie` ball, or the Crimean War .. edit: Baker Rifle was mass produced in england around 1800 and had a 1/4 turn over 30 inch rifled barrel, Springfield Armory didn't produce their first rifle musket until 1855).

Also the Pennsylvania and Kentucky Long Rifles were a copy of a German design, commonly referred to as the Jaeger.

"The Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle and the Baker rifle are both based on the Jaeger rifle and hence share many of its characteristics. The rifles were all muzzleloaders since these were cheaper to manufacture... The rifle barrels had 7 to 8 spiral grooves cut into them and the barrels were between 30-36 inches in length, depending upon model...Typical firing mechanism was flintlock, which was state-of-the-art at that time. Since making the flintlock mechanism needed some really specialized technical skills (such as spring making and metallurgy) not usually available on the American frontier, American gunsmiths often imported the firing mechanisms in bulk from English gunsmiths and attached them to their rifles. These weapons were accurate to at least 400-500 yards or so, though there are documented instances of skilled marksmen hitting their targets at a range of 800 yards."

source - http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/05/rifling-history.html

Jaeger means Hunter.

I hold to my argument, that the "Hunter" rifle is a model 1816 Harper's Ferry(or possibly a Model 1822 Springfield) that has been rifled and likely also percussion capped. It is hard to find a model of either of those flintlocks that aren't rifled or percussion capped today. Even though they were produced as smoothbore flintlocks.