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Vito and Joe killed the bosses of 2 crime families. That's unprecedented in American mafia history. In real life American history, just killing one boss would make you become boss yourself (John Gotti anyone?)
It was so disempowering as a player to see Vito act like a whipped dog in Chapter 15. Leo lecturing Vito like a child. And Vito just sits there and takes it. It would've been amazing to hear Vito say "Yeah, I started a war. A war that I'm going to end. Then I'm going to become boss. You can either join me, Leo or get the f*** out of my way."
People seem to forget that Vinci tortured both Vito and Joe. They're supposed to just let that slide? As Vito would say "get the f*** out."
Who does Leo think he is? Vito is a rising star. He's killed hundreds of men on his way to the top. If the game were realistic, people would be terrified of Vito. Killing a mafia boss is huge, and the other bosses would've been afraid they were next, so they would've tried to make peace with Vito, perhaps making him boss to appease him.
WE should've been given the option of how to deal with Leo. I don't know about you, but I don't take kindly to Leo threatening Vito's life.
The whole game, Vito was nothing more than an errand boy and a Yes Man. It would've been refreshing to hear Vito say "You know what? Go f*** yourself Leo. I'm not doing your bidding anymore."
Or perhaps Vito agrees to kill Falcone and then goes and makes plans to kill Vinci. Give the PLAYER the option of who to kill. Falcone or Vinci.
Instead, the ending we get is Vito acting like a whipped dog again and Vinci not being dealt with.
Fair enough, but Vito and Joe killed Clemente while acting under the orders of Falcone, so it technically wasn't their kill and they really had no way to become bosses given that they acted on someone else's orders. )Vito killed Falcone on someone else's orders too)
He had nothing else to do, he ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up badly, every underground organization in the city was being wiped out because he vouched for a rat, he had to take it.
Vito killed one of Vinci's right hand men (Papalardo) and caused the war that was hgetting half of Vinci's guys to be capped by chinese folks, of course he had to find the culprit in order to set things right with Mr. Chu, it was already technically pretty kind of him to allow Vito and Joe to live as it were.
Leo prevented every mob in the city from wiping out Vito the night before Chapter 15 begins, Vito breaths literally because Leo vouched for him, he even says so himself when he's reading his photo album (Things were bad, and they were only get gonna worse) Vito knows everything's gone to hell and there's basically a "witch hunt" in Empire Bay thanks to his actions.
Leo saved Vito's life, regardless of how you look at it, Leo is mad of course because Vito practically turned the families to the feds on a silver platter, and all because Vito was friends with a rat.
But he wanted that, he didn't want to be a boss, he wanted to be the guy everyone respects in the neighborhood, he wanted respect, the one who wanted to become a Boss in all rights was Joe, I think the game makes it pretty clear most of the time that Joe wants power while Vito wants respect.
There's no point in killing Vinci, he really is the only "honest" (shaped in the old ways) big mobster in the game, to the point where he decides not to kill Vito or Joe until he gets them to confess.
We get Vito realizing that there's no room for friendship in the mafia, he's scared and alone as he realizes that everything he cared for has left his side, his mother died because he couldn't tend to her, his sister left him because of his violence, his best friend is dead because he trusted him, and ultimately the cars, the money and the women didn't come to stay, that's the message the game was aiming for all along, IMO. (One could argue execution was lousy in some parts, but I still personally feel the ending manages to showcase what the point was all along)-
The whole "crime doesn't pay" thing is such a tired theme. We got enough of that in Mafia 1. Sometimes crime does pay, just ask Tony Soprano. I suppose the good thing about Mafia 2's open-ended ending is it allows people to debate it, similar to The Sopranos.
Let's look at all that Vito and Joe did. They wiped out the greasers, wiped out the Triads, killed dozens of Clemente's men and then Clemente himself, killed dozens of Vinci's men, killed dozens of Falcone's men and then Falcone himself.
Vito can take care of himself. He doesn't need Leo's protection. And the fact of Leo making secret deals with Vito and Joe's lives just makes me hate Leo. If I would've known early in the game that Leo would ultimately use Vito as a pawn to consolidate power for Vinci, I never would've saved Leo's life. Leo is just a shady b*stard. He forces Vito to kill Falcone, that's just to help Vinci.
Why are Vito and Joe not allowed to consolidate power? They've done everyone else's bidding.
Actually it would've been a nice touch if there was a chapter where the families tried to gang up and kill Vito, but he fought off the attackers. Vito should just go off the deep end and kill everyone except his one true friend, Joe.
I guess what pisses me off is the storyline doesn't match up with all the killing Vito and Joe do. You don't kill hundreds of mobsters and not become boss yourself. That is so unrealistic it's laughable.
The speech Vito makes when he's killing Falcone is brilliant. Vito kills anyone who gets in his way. That's the Vito we deserve to see. Then he gets in the car and he's going to accept Joe's death? I think not.
Look how much Vito flipped out when Henry got killed. And Henry meant a lot less to Vito than Joe did. Honestly, Vito should just kill everyone. Leo, Mr. Chu., the bodyguards. I didn't play the whole game for an ending like that. Fail ending is fail.
What are we supposed to believe happens to Vito? He becomes depressed and retires from the mafia? I think not. If anything, Joe's death just makes Vito realize he truly has nothing left to live for and he becomes a rabid dog.
Thanks, I have to say I feel exactly where you're coming from because I've also been there, but over time and some other playthroughs I just got a new perspective on things. (Reading the developers' intentions with the ending also helped lol).
I have to disagree there, developers of the game have already stated it's not really open ended and it's pretty clear on what it wants to accomplish.
"Our goal with the ending was to go against the clichés and “epic closing moments”. We wanted the ending to be surprising, direct and cold like a shot from a gun. The last hours of the game are supposed to make you realize how badly you got involved in the messy world of organized crime and how serious the consequences are. You are supposed to feel bad and scared and the final moment was not meant to conclude it with a sober death scene or a happy miraculous save… it was supposed to end like a shot from a gun: to catch you surprised and leave a lasting impact." - Martin Zavrel.
Source: http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?88751-Q-amp-A-with-Martin-Zavrel/page2&s=488dcda7ed8d444f8e4ff2fda9ef74ae
Fair enough, they did a lot of killing, but the Greasers were nothing but drunk dirtbags (as Vito calls them) and they killed relatively few Triad members (considering that it was only the ones stationed at a single restaurant) aside from that, yeah they did some pretty amazing feats, Joe definetly was going on his way to the top (Clemente did acknoledge his power at the end) while I still feel Vito never meant to achieve power at the same way. When he gets made I think it's pretty clear he wanted to be a wiseguy above all. (Kind of like Henry Hill in Goodfellas, the guy had no interest in becoming a boss, he just wanted the respect of being in a gang).
But he did need of Leo's protection in the end, everyone was getting killed left and right, even Joe was made a mess by Vinci's people. Leo didn't use Vito, they could've very easily sent someone else after Falcone, but the deal was that if Vito was to pull it off, he would be forgiven by the Triads (And supposedly, Vinci and the Comission aswell, though the fact that Papalardo's death is never adressed is pretty annoying, he was one of Vinci's top men after all). What's important is that Leo wasn't really getting power for Vinci, if anyone understands power I feel it's Leo, and he knows that there needs to be balance among the families, and Falcone dealing drugs just goes against everything the Comission stood for, I can't help but feel Leo's motivations were not on behalf of Vinci's welfare but on behalf of the balance of power in Empire Bay, in the end he only talks about stopping the war, not about empowering Vinci.
Joe clearly was consolidating power, but IMO, that wasn't Vito's aim (Again, I have to go by the fact that Vito is heavily based on Henry Hill, and Henry never cared to be boss himself).
I agree, I feel that's what should've happened in the end, Vito should still be on the black list because of how badly he messed up (He ultimately destroyed the organized crime of Empire Bay), howver, I feel it would've be simply much better with Joe dead, it would give far more meaning to people going after Vito.
True, but the gameplay had to be moved somehow, and it sure wouldn't be interesting to kill 2 - 5 guys per mission and call it a day. But again, I feel this was rather -acceptably- done by establishing Joe's motivations to become a boss. In the end he actually has the chance to become one, and turns it down because he decides to trust in his best friend, I feel that to be rather powerful in the story overall. In a way I also feel it should suit your view, because Joe's power is acknoledged in the end, he ends up turning it down for Vito though.
He coulnd't do anything about it, it's really a Rags to Riches, then back to Rags kind of story, Vito was at the top of the world at one point, and that doesn't wear off easily, but I have to go back to Zavrel's quote and remark that Vito (and the player) is supposed to feel powerless at the end, I would say El Greco's last speech serves that right, I think despite knowing he had caused a war and that he had made it into the Comission's blacklist, Vito didn't realize how badly he had messed up until his best friend was taken from him. One could say he could've stormed the car and go after Joe but it really makes little sense, Vito is rather broken by that point, he's lost his family and his best friend because of his choices, but those are choices he made, and just like he didn't go after Francesca I would say he wouldn't go after Joe, it's what he did and ultimately it's something he's gotta have to live (and die) with. (Not to mention, again, that Vito was alive because Leo put all the organizations on hold, Vito can surely take on many gangs, but I doubt he could stand a chance against ALL of them after his head at the same time).
But then again you should look at what happened when Vito avenged Henry, one'd think Vito would learn from that irrational thinking. Avenging Henry is what started the war, now going after Joe would be just cataclysmic IMO.
I would think so myself, but still I can't help but feel Mafia II is the story of Vito and Joe, one of them dies, and it just becomes irrelevant, and that's what happens at the end, at the cruel realization that Joe is on the way to the slaughter the game ends, I feel it's a way to say that the story is indeed over, Vito and Joe are no more. My take on it is of course that Vito becomes kind of a living husk or a broken man, still a hitman but with little to go by.
All in all, if rumours are true Mafia III would feature 3 main protagonists, so I'm looking forward to perhaps a similar story development for that one, aswell as, naturally, some clearance on what actually happened to Joe.
And as a personal note, I also felt rather pissed at the ending at first, but I eventually felt it was better to not be spoon fed everything, I guess I'm just thankful the game didn't end on a miraculous save or a cliché death scene, after replaying the game again I just feel like the rage I felt was more a result of me liking Joe, rather than some bitter taste after the final cutscene. (Also, I personally took the game as I would take a book, you don't consider the last paragraph to be the end, you consider the whole final chapter to be the finale, and in that regard, I feel Mafia II had a pretty good finale, the whole final chapter taken as a whole is pretty solid, specially taking into account that the story opens up with Vito opening his album, and it ends with him closing his album, then it goes to the finale).
From what I heard, the developers were unsure how to end the game. They had several endings to choose from, and they chose the best one apparently.
Mafia 2 is a tragic tale. The Escapist Magazine's website went so far as to say "Mafia 2 is to video games what Shakespeare is to literature."
Given the rumors about Mafia 3 taking place in Louisiana, I would guess what happens to Vito is he leaves Empire Bay, perhaps voluntarily, perhaps not, and goes to the south to escape the 3 mafia families gunning for him.
When I referred to the ending as open ended, I meant in regards to Vito. A lot of people want to believe that Joe somehow escapes death, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Just seems like the developers tried so hard to avoid cliches that they made an unsatisfying ending. They couldn't do a "happily ever after" ending because that would be cliche. They couldn't do a death scene because that would be cliche. At the very least, players expected a grand cinematic ending. Instead the game ends abruptly.
It's rags to riches to rags in more than one respect. When Vito lost his house and money, that foreshadowed the ending.
Vito is a fighter though. I can't see him giving up because Joe dies. Vito managed to kill swarms of mobsters from all 3 families. You'd think he would've seriously weakened at least one of them to the point where either Vito or Joe could've taken over. Or they could've started their own gang.
Joe seems like an idiot though. Can't imagine him being don. And Vito didn't have aspirations to be boss. He certainly didn't show any agency. For most of the game he's simply a pawn, and when he does decide to act on his own by taking on the Triads, a clusterf*ck ensues.
In the end, becoming boss is not what the Mafia series is about thus far. If you want to become boss, play the Godfather games.
Yeah, one of them involved Vito retiring and opening his own Pizza shop, I'd actually have liked to see that one.
While I agree it's a more serious kind of game, I disagree it's on the same scale as Sahkespeare, I think we're still a long way from having a Hamlet or a Citizen Kane of videogames.
I would actually like to see that, I also feel the most sane thing to do for him would be to leave Empire Bay.
True that, we really have no idea what happens to Vito, but still, I can't stop feeling it reinforces the idea that it was all about Vito and Joe, with one of them gone, it just can't go on (As a single story I mean, I'm sure future installments could elaborate on what happened with Mafia II characters without any hassle).
True, I would have really liked an actual "Epilogue" showing whatever happened to Vito, but alas, I don't mind it that much, I felt it was a story about building a criminal life, then see how everything falls apart.
True, but then again, throughout the whole story Joe is always there, even when Vito was in prison their continuos friendship is more than implied. I feel neither Joe nor Vito had any knowledge about what taing over a gang meant though, I mean they were badasses but when it comes down to it, they were pretty much just kids compared to everyone else.
For what it's worth, I think Leo makes it rather clear that Joe and Vito could've been just like Frank and himself, I think Joe could become a boss, I think he had what it took, and Vito could've become as wise as Leo in time, but alas, too many mistakes simply didn't allow that.
True, but I especially liked how Joe was literally one step away from being a Capo, from being the second in charge with his own crew, that added some sweet irony, he sure didn't know how to be a boss but I feel he honestly had what it took to be one, had he taken Falcone's offer I think he would've learnt quick enough how to deal with the situation and get to the top sooner or later.
Yeah, I feel that's what they should tackle next, we've only played wiseguys with little to no aspirations to become boss, even Tommy in Mafia I ends up being afraid of being a Don, and that's all good, but it really is about time we see what it's like being in the top with our own eyes.
I didn't know that was one of the possible endings. Doesn't really make sense. I don't remember any time during the game where Vito shows an inclination for cooking. Him opening a pizza shop would've been a real head scratcher for me.
Perhaps with Vavra no longer on the team, we can get a proper "rise through the ranks" mafia game. Hell, just becoming a capo would be a first for the series. When you kill hundreds of mobsters and kill 2 dons, and you don't even get to become a captain, that's messed up.
One area where Mafia 2 really faultered was how meaningless the mafia families were. Vito switches families like it's nothing, and the first time I played the game, at any given point I had no idea which family I was working for. Vito kills mobsters in all 3 families, and kills the bosses of 2 of them. I guess the messiness of the family loyalties is by design.
I can't remember if Tommy Angelo becomes a made man or if he spends the whole game as just an associate. Looking back on Mafia 2, I'm surprised it took so long for Vito and Joe to become made men. Not until Vito kills Luca in Chapter 9, do they officially become soldiers.
And then Vito's first task as a soldier is to kill a don. Quite a responsibility to be handing to a new member.
Wasn't Henry Hill just an associate? If Goodfellas, one of the best mafia movies ever made, can feature a compelling story about a guy who doesn't even become a soldier, perhaps it's not a stretch for Mafia 1 to do the same.
However, the Godfather movies are considered the best cinematic mafia tale. And those are movies about being don. Perhaps the Mafia video games wanted to be different, and not just a video game depiction of The Godfather. So the focus is on low level characters.
Yeah, or so is assumed, some time ago people were digging up game files and such, and some texture files showed a place called "Pizza Scaletta" so it was assumed by many that it could be a hint at one of the removed endings, I myself would've liked the idea more in a "retire out the mafia business" kind of ending, but yeah, I'm sure it wouldn't been that good.
I completly agree, we can't be so afraid of exploring what's like being on the shoes of the Don for much longer. (That if Mafia III ever happens, though. The Godfather, Scarface and even Vice City games simply didn't cut it for me when it came to being a boss, it felt like a cartoony portrayal at best, and like a bad historical mock at worst, at least Mafia I and II have instilled a sense of respect for these guys, even fear).
Mafia 3: Zombie Edition. Joe is back from the grave and he's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ pissed.