Maximum Stats

[Barath]

Anybody know how the maximum of the stats is generated?

[Barath]

Hi.
I recently started playing Arcanum again after ages and didnt care much about the game mechanics in the beginning. But after playing for some time I startetd looking into things a bit deeper. There are some opinions on the maximum of the stats, but there seem to be very few facts known.
I only found one guide with specific infos on this - and the infos turned out to be wrong. The guide said, race and backround mali reduce the stat-max (basic of 20) as well. I made a dwarf with the "mad-doctor" backround. This combination gives me -2 on Con and -3 on Dex. So the max Con should be 18 and the max Dex should be 17. But they are not. I could bring Con to 21 and Dex to 20.
So I experimented a bit with the body-stats (Str, Con, Dex, Bea), since they are easy to test.
Here is what I found out.

The body-stat-maxs for the different races (with no specific background) are:

- 20 Everything for humans
- 20 everything for gnomes
- 21 Str & Con, 20 Dex & Bea for Half-Orcs
- 21 Str & Con, 20 Dex & Bea for Dwarves
- 24 Str, 20 Everything else for Half-Ogres
- 21 Dex & Bea, 20 Str & Con for Elfes
- 21 Dex, 20 Everything else for Half-Elfes (this one is a bit weird)
- 22 Dex, 20 Everything Else for Halflings

Remember: This is without a specific background and only for the 4 body stats. The stat-maxima are the same for both genders (tested it for each race that has females). Edit:

Im gonna keep testing and posting my results here, but this will take ALOT more time, so help / infos would be appreciated.

Does somebody know:

1.) The maximum of the mental stats for each race?
2.) If and how (some / all) backrounds effect the stat maximum?

Thx for your help in advance :)

Edit: I clearly made a mistake here by testing with buffs. Buffs can increase a stat at least to 20 (or higher if the race allows it), but you cant put more then 12 char-points in a stat, in case it got a mali from the race (and probably background and gender as well).

opens the question: is that true for ALL buffs, or only for some?

[Salutations]

Racial and Gender bonuses/penalties determine weather stat can reach 20, go above it, or fall short of it. Females have that -1 to STR and +1 to CON. So a half-elf female can have 21 DEX and 21 CON, but only a 19 STR.

Now, I don't quite recall backgrounds having affect to penalize the maximum achievable stat due to the penalties it gives, because its bonuses cannot exceed the maximum stat achievable due to race and gender, otherwise you could end up with a background that makes a female halfling stronger than a male half-ogre. Doesn't make much sense.

Thankfully you don't need the full 20 for anything, other than having a better side effect from that stat. For example, having a DEX of a 20 will give you a 21 speed and a 19 DEX will give you 15.

Skills, on the other hand, if I remember correctly, cannot reach full (5 points from player, converted 20 for game's design) if there is a penalty based on race, gender, background.

I'll inquire this further on a later date to double check the backgrounds.

[Barath]

Thx alot for the quick reply.

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

Racial and Gender bonuses/penalties determine weather stat can reach 20, go above it, or fall short of it. Females have that -1 to STR and +1 to CON.

Thats pretty much the information I found on Racial- and Gender-effects concerning stat-maximum.
Unfortunatly after some testing I am sure that this info is WRONG. :(
I tested this for every race/gender-combination (all without special background) and it seems the race can only increase the max-stat, not lower it (gender seems to have no effect at all on the stat-maximum!).
Actually thats kinda the point of this threadt. ;)

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

So a half-elf female can have 21 DEX and 21 CON, but only a 19 STR.

Yes, thats what I thought it should be. But to my surprise it wasnt.
I loaded my test-savegame again right now, just to be sure: Half-elf female has max stats of 21 for DEX, 20 for CON, 20 for STR and 20 for Beauty.
What bewildered me the most was the 20 for Beauty, since it means that the racial bonus for Beauty didnt raise the stat-max (in all other tests race-boni would raise the stat-maximum).

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

Now, I don't quite recall backgrounds having affect to penalize the maximum achievable stat due to the penalties it gives, because its bonuses cannot exceed the maximum stat achievable due to race and gender, otherwise you could end up with a background that makes a female halfling stronger than a male half-ogre. Doesn't make much sense.

What I heard so far was, that a background-penality will LOWER your maximum stat, but a buff will not increase it. But my dwarven mad-doctor (-3 CON, -2 DEX from the background) was able to reach 21 CON and 20 DEX. This was, what made me test these things. So maybe the background dosent effect the max-stats at all, but a lot of people on the internet said it would. So I was wondering if maybe SOME backgrounds have an effect on the stat-maximum, and others dont.

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

Thankfully you don't need the full 20 for anything, other than having a better side effect from that stat. For example, having a DEX of a 20 will give you a 21 speed and a 19 DEX will give you 15.

Tbh I thought the level 20 boosts are quite strong imho. (for example: I thought dwarves to be a bit weak, since they misss out on the 5 Speed points for one char point on lvl 20 DEX) So I think it might be quite good to know how the stat-maxima work before thinking of my next build for a playthrough.

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

I'll inquire this further on a later date to double check the backgrounds.

thx alot for your help. I appreciate it :)


I really wonder why my tests show such different results from everyones believes about this.
I play with the un-modded version on steam.
Maybe there has been a patch, that changed anything about this?
Or is it, because I tested the body-stats with the elemental-buffs? Do the stat-maxima only reduce the amount of hard char-points, one can put into them, while there is another maximum, for what u can reach with buffs?

I m gonna keep testing, but everything from now on will take alot longer, so I wont be able to give new test-results soon.

[Barath]

Ok.
Did some more testing.
Things are more complicated.

It seems above I made the mistake by testing with buffs.
I tested with a halfling and couldnt invest more then 12 points into strength (brought him up to 17), but could still increase his strength to 20 with "strength of earth".
The stat-max IS decreased by racial-penalitys (and probably as well by gender and background) as far as hard char-points are involved. BUT you can still buff your stats above those limits up to 20 (or higher, if your race gave you a bonus). The buffs the made that possible for me were the first spells from the elemental-colleges and the intelligenz-potion (brings the int of ogres up to 20).

So there are basically 2 maxima for stats:
1st that is 20 + race boni & - race (and possibly gender & beground) mali;
2nd that is 20 + race boni (but can only be reached with buffs if it is bigger then the first)

Sorry if I confused anybody.

Gonna test for Backgrounds and gender the next days.

[Salutations]

So, after some testing with a custom background, penalties received via background DO reduce the maximum stat value. However, the maximum for that stat is lowered by what the penalty is minus one. Testing with a half-orc male, maximum for strength is 21. With a -2 penalty, the maximum becomes a 20 strength. A -3 penalty becomes a 19 maximum, and so on and so forth (should apply with all stats; tested it with just strength and constitution). A -1 penalty does not lower the maximum stat based on race/gender. Spells do overpower the background penalty, so using strength of earth spell (+4 to strength) a half-orc male can still achieve the maximum racial strength of 21 with a -4 to penalty (-5 from background). Anything lower than the -4 (-5 stated from background) like a -5 (-6) would not achieve the maximum.

[Barath]

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

So, after some testing with a custom background, penalties received via background DO reduce the maximum stat value. However, the maximum for that stat is lowered by what the penalty is minus one. Testing with a half-orc male, maximum for strength is 21. With a -2 penalty, the maximum becomes a 20 strength. A -3 penalty becomes a 19 maximum, and so on and so forth (should apply with all stats; tested it with just strength and constitution). A -1 penalty does not lower the maximum stat based on race/gender. Spells do overpower the background penalty, so using strength of earth spell (+4 to strength) a half-orc male can still achieve the maximum racial strength of 21 with a -4 to penalty (-5 from background). Anything lower than the -4 (-5 stated from background) like a -5 (-6) would not achieve the maximum.

Wow!
Thx alot.
This seems to be really complicated.

I found an interesting guide, that seems to conflict with what u found out. Even so I would believe your testing over this, it might be interesting, since it says, that there are different rules for different stats (strength to others):

The basic attribute stats normally cap at 20. If your RACE (NOT BACKGROUND OR SEX) adjusts it, the cap is increased by a bonus or reduced by a penalty. If your RACE lowers a cap below 20, then your BACKGROUND or SEX bonuses can raise the cap UP TO 20, not beyond. BACKGROUND or SEX penalties will lower caps, EXCEPT A STR CAP RAISED BY RACE. All ingame effects on the basic attribute stats will abide by these limits set at character creation.
Formulas for simplification, depending on wether race adds, subtracts, or does not affect the stat:
20 + RACE + or - BACKGROUND + or - SEX = CAP
20 - RACE + or - BACKGROUND + or - SEX = CAP LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO 20
20 + or - BACKGROUND + or - SEX = CAP LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO 20
STR CAP:
20 + RACE = CAP
20 - RACE + or - BACKGROUND + or - SEX = CAP LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO 20
20 + or - BACKGROUND + or - SEX = CAP LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO 20

https://terra-arcanum.com/forums/index.php?threads/items-spells-skills-stats-usefullness-and-maximization.17970/

But you tested for STR and CON, and they both behaved in the same way?

Thx alot for your hard work :)

[Barath]

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

So, after some testing with a custom background, penalties received via background DO reduce the maximum stat value. However, the maximum for that stat is lowered by what the penalty is minus one. Testing with a half-orc male, maximum for strength is 21. With a -2 penalty, the maximum becomes a 20 strength. A -3 penalty becomes a 19 maximum, and so on and so forth (should apply with all stats; tested it with just strength and constitution). A -1 penalty does not lower the maximum stat based on race/gender. Spells do overpower the background penalty, so using strength of earth spell (+4 to strength) a half-orc male can still achieve the maximum racial strength of 21 with a -4 to penalty (-5 from background). Anything lower than the -4 (-5 stated from background) like a -5 (-6) would not achieve the maximum.

Hmm. I did some testing myself and this is not what I found out.

1. Test: Half-Orc, male, Background "Frankenstein's monster". The background gives a -6 penality on DEX. I leveled up until I had 13 free char points. I could not raise DEX above 14, so the maximum seems to be 20 -6 from the background.
2. Test: Half-Oger, "Rare Half-Ogre" Background (-1 STR, -1 Con, +2 INT). I leveled, until I had 14 free Charpoints. I could raise CON to 19 (20 -1 from the background), INT to 18 (20 -4 Race +2 Backrground) and Strength to 24 (20 +4 from Race).

So far this seems to be more, what the guy in the link above said... can you tell me what Backgrounds you used for testing? Maybe its different from background to background.

[Salutations]

So, a bonus from background can boost a stat to 20 (half orc male, 18 char standard, +2 from background, could put it at 20).

Made a test with a half ogre on a background with a -5 to strength. So by previous testing it shouldve been a -4 to strength, ending up with a 20. However, it ended up being a 23, 24 achieveable through strength of earth spell. Also had a -1 to con, but that applied correctly as a -1. Seems there are variations with races.

Background i have been using is a custom background that im changing to test various variables, and with a massive boost to exp as to gain levels very quickly

[Salutations]

Human female put it to -4 to be, -1 to dex. Applies properly (as in actually a -4 to be, -1 to dex). Spells overpower gender and background penalties, as with the first spells of the elementals (fire, water, earth) i could raise stats to 20. So there are inconsistencies, sadly even with massive exp boost, it would take a larger deal of time than i willing to put with to find them all, although im my spare time i can adjust the background to test racial/gender/background penalties if requested.

[Salutations]

Further testing shows that background penalties do not take into effect until they are greater than racial bonuses. Halfling with a background of -2 to dex only started with an 8 instead of 10 but can still acheive a 22 dex. Same with the halforc testing of why a -1 did not do anything, but a -2 did. So when it comes to background penalties it seems to be the difference of it and the racial bonus, so a +2 racial bonus and a -2 background bonus means 0 difference, just a lower starting stat. However, a +2 racial and a -3 background means there will be a -1 cap penalty, so a halfling with a background that gives -3 to dex can max out at a 21 instead of 22, unless you use the agility of fire spell, which means you can still overall get that 22.

[Barath]

Originally posted by rushpwnag3:

Further testing shows that background penalties do not take into effect until they are greater than racial bonuses. Halfling with a background of -2 to dex only started with an 8 instead of 10 but can still acheive a 22 dex. Same with the halforc testing of why a -1 did not do anything, but a -2 did. So when it comes to background penalties it seems to be the difference of it and the racial bonus, so a +2 racial bonus and a -2 background bonus means 0 difference, just a lower starting stat. However, a +2 racial and a -3 background means there will be a -1 cap penalty, so a halfling with a background that gives -3 to dex can max out at a 21 instead of 22, unless you use the agility of fire spell, which means you can still overall get that 22.

Thx alot for your hard work!
I ran some tests myself and couldnt explain my numbers, but they seem to match with what u found out. Good job.
Could you do me a favour and double-check the max-stats for half-elfs (without special background)? My numbers with them were a bit weird, since their beauty max seems to be 20, even so they got a race boni on it. Maybe they got some other hidden differences in their max-stats as well...

[Salutations]

Odd, indeed, since elf can achieve a 21 in beauty. It may be hard-capped for half elf due to lore issues, not being a full elf, half human, so not as beautiful as one. (even use the spell that increases beauty, it did not go above a 20 on a half elf.)

[Barath]

Ok, I ran a few more test but didnt find out much new.
I guess to summ things up we could say:

-There are 2 caps for each stat: A "buffed"-cap, which defines how high a stat can go with buffs, and a natural-cap, which defines how high a stat can be brought with char-points only (the points you get for levelling up).

- The "buffed"-cap is determined only through race. Its "20" for each stat, unless the race gives a bonus on the stat, then its "20+bonus" (24 STR for Ogres, 22 Dex for Halflings, 21 Willpower for Elfes, etc). The only exception here is the "beauty"-stat for halfelfs, which is 20 (even so Halfelfs get a +1 bonus on it). Buffs that can reach the buffed max include (not tested for everything, but didnt find exceptions during tests): Elemental spells, Intelligence-potions, Blessings of old gods, Items (magical & mechanical). A stat can never be raised beyond its "buffed"-cap.

- The natural-cap is determined through race, gender and background. The basic cap (for male humans without a special background) is 20 for all stats. Boni and mali are added and applied to that 20 basic cap (a male Halfling with the "Ladys man" background gets a -3 malus on STR for being a halfling and a -2 malus for the background, resulting in a natural-cap of 15 [20-3-2=20-5]). The natural cap can never be higher then the "buffed"-cap (a human male with the "Frankenstein's monster" background, which gives +4 Strength, will still only have a natural-cap of 20 = the buffed-STR-cap for humans, a half-orc with the same background will have a natural-Str-cap of 21 = the buffed Str-cap for half-orcs). If there is a race-bonus to the stat, an additional "buffer" is added in the same hight as the bonus. This "buffer" will reduce mali from gender and background (a male halforc with the "ladys man" background gets a +1 Str-Bonus and a 1 mali-buffer for his race; his background gives him a -2 Str-malus, resluting in a natural Str-cap of 20 [20+1-[2-1]=20+1-1=20]). Half-Elfes are (again) an exception, since they only get a starting bonus on beauty, but have no bonus on the natural-beauty-cap.

- The bottom cap of a stat is 1. A stat cant be lower then 1, but if a Character has mali on a stat higher then 7 these build up a negative "buffer", which must be paid before the stat can be raised again (half-oger race gives a -4 malus on Int and "raised in the pits" background gives -6 on Int (-10 in total), a Halfogre with that background will have an Int of 1 [8-4-6= -2 -> 1] with a negativ buffer of -3. The next 3 points put into Int will NOT increase the stat, but the 4th will raise it to 2. The natural-cap is normaly reduced to 10 [20-4-6=20-10=10]).

Thx for the help rushpwnag3.
Do you agree with my summary?

[Barath]

I tried to max out speed (Halfling, hyperactive, temproal master, potion of haste) and found out: Speed max is capped at 100. Each point of dex gives 1 speed, Dex 20 gives another 5 speed, so speed from 22 dex is 27. "Tempus fugit" gives 10 speed, makes: 37. Haste-spell doubles ONLY speed-boni from dex, the lvl 20 dex speed-bonus, and the bonus from "tempus fugit", makes: 74. Haste-potion gives 20 speed, makes: 94. Body of air gives 10 speed, should make: 104, but is capped at 100. Hyperactive gives 1 speed, should make: 105, but is capped at 100. 100 Speed can be reached without being halfling and without Hyperactive, just with max dex, temporal spells , body of air and haste-potion: 2*(25+10)+10+20

[Scrubwave]

Blast from the past. Interestingly, companions have a whole lot different max stats, for example Torian Kel, human, can only have 19 str while Z'an, a dark elf, can only have 17 str.
Tested it by giving them the "no scheme" levelling scheme and trying to pump their str, though it can still be boosted by items, spells etc to 20.