Serious problems with enemy AIs

[Nikolay-97]

As I fire the first shot (even if it's silenced), ALL enemies on the ENTIRE map rush at me and I can't do anything but stand in a corner and cry my way to impending death.

it's just plain unplayable if I go beyond rookie difficulty and beyond 4 bots.
But in any case the game ends immediately:

or because I die overwhelmed by zombies thirsty for my blood, or because I kill those 4 manageable immediately all in a row.

Make enemies more tactical.

Please, the game is simply unplayable.

I want to believe in this project, do not let me down!


(I only recently bought the game, and I refrained from refound)

[>>>>>>>>>>>SYCSPY<<<<<<<<<<<]

Just refund it.

[Nikolay-97]

Originally posted by >>>>>>>>>>>SYCSPY<<<<<<<<<<<:

Just refund it.

Why never?

The developers have abandoned the game and therefore will not update it anymore?
Will these problems no longer be solved?

[36 bald fat lives with parents]

Well, this is a rough one right now.

First, you may have experienced one of the co-op AI bugs that happens when all enemies just know where you are, shoot through walls, etc. That's a glitch. It happens enough to be annoying but it is not all the time. I'd say I see it about once a week. The answer is to leave the server and start a new one.

The difficulty of the AI - if indeed this is happening to you all the time - it is positively a skill issue. Play more. The suppressed pistols have a range. In CQB maps indoors it might be a greater distance, but I don't know for sure. Just seems so at times. That is how it would be in real life. Suppressed pistols are anything but silent. They sound like firecrackers. A large part of why I tend to avoid suppressors in Onward is that they are too quiet, and not similar to any suppressors I have heard in real life. So you can expect them to rush you with a suppressed weapon but up to a certain range only.

Eventually you will see rookie as a joke of a setting that is far too easy to waste your time with. It is the single greatest identifier of a server I don't need to be on unless I feel like some serious pistol practice or knifing everything.

That being said - the AI will likely see no attention any time soon. AI is usually on the back end of priorities in dev shops, especially in non-PVP scenarios. They had talked about improvements for a while, and we recently saw some changes with animations that may have included behavioral changes. I wouldn't get my hopes up that another patch addressing AI would be slated for the year. When I made games, AI was never a priority for some stupid reason... oh wait, I know the reason. Idiot publishers.

This game is still very playable in spite of the many issues it currently has. If you are looking for a forgiving experience, any of the others you likely hear along side Onward, like Pavlov and Contractors, are going to be a lot easier on the player. Onward tries to force you to play slower and more tactical. It was a lot better at this before the quest ruined it, but it still has plenty of the skeleton of the original game that made you think twice before crossing the road.

Give it another shot. Slow down. Make use of the tools. Know when to camp and when to stick and move. Practice until its muscle memory.

[Nikolay-97]

Originally posted by 36 bald fat lives with parents:

Well, this is a rough one right now.

First, you may have experienced one of the co-op AI bugs that happens when all enemies just know where you are, shoot through walls, etc. That's a glitch. It happens enough to be annoying but it is not all the time. I'd say I see it about once a week. The answer is to leave the server and start a new one.

The difficulty of the AI - if indeed this is happening to you all the time - it is positively a skill issue. Play more. The suppressed pistols have a range. In CQB maps indoors it might be a greater distance, but I don't know for sure. Just seems so at times. That is how it would be in real life. Suppressed pistols are anything but silent. They sound like firecrackers. A large part of why I tend to avoid suppressors in Onward is that they are too quiet, and not similar to any suppressors I have heard in real life. So you can expect them to rush you with a suppressed weapon but up to a certain range only.

Eventually you will see rookie as a joke of a setting that is far too easy to waste your time with. It is the single greatest identifier of a server I don't need to be on unless I feel like some serious pistol practice or knifing everything.

That being said - the AI will likely see no attention any time soon. AI is usually on the back end of priorities in dev shops, especially in non-PVP scenarios. They had talked about improvements for a while, and we recently saw some changes with animations that may have included behavioral changes. I wouldn't get my hopes up that another patch addressing AI would be slated for the year. When I made games, AI was never a priority for some stupid reason... oh wait, I know the reason. Idiot publishers.

This game is still very playable in spite of the many issues it currently has. If you are looking for a forgiving experience, any of the others you likely hear along side Onward, like Pavlov and Contractors, are going to be a lot easier on the player. Onward tries to force you to play slower and more tactical. It was a lot better at this before the quest ruined it, but it still has plenty of the skeleton of the original game that made you think twice before crossing the road.

Give it another shot. Slow down. Make use of the tools. Know when to camp and when to stick and move. Practice until its muscle memory.

Thanks for the reply.
But my problem is absolutely not experience with this type of tactical titles: I'm a veteran with hundreds of hours between SWAT 4, Ground Branch and Ready or Not since launch.
And my first tactical game was the first Ghost Recon twenty years ago, when I was young. Also Hidden & Dangerous II, Socom and many more...

I'm used to having a methodical step and full attention, with tactical management of the team.

But the AI is the problem here. I play offline, so it's not even some server's fault.
I repeat. From the first shot fired, everyone in maps comes rushing me like they were fearless zombies.
It's not realistic. It's not tactical. It doesn't happen in any other "tactical game".

Among other things, I discovered comments from other users and I seem to have understood that after a not too old update this AI bug happened. So this didn't happen before and many players complain nowadays.

So I hope it gets fixed.
For me it would be like playing Ground Branch but VR.

[36 bald fat lives with parents]

Originally posted by Nikolay-97:

I play offline, so it's not even some server's fault.

This is probably the key then. I didn't realize you were playing single player. I don't know what the game does in single player mode.

Just to compare, see if you can go into multiplayer co-op, create a new server but put a password on it. That way you will be the only one in the lobby. The password is an option when you click create server. It might be floating on the right or something. This should give you the same experience as single player, but in a context that might make all the difference.

The idea is that maybe the devs haven't been debugging single player experiences and some things may have slipped by or were outright not addressed. There's a thousand ways and more to program a game, so the AI logic in multiplayer may not be the same as single player. Considering the majority of the players are on a multiplayer server, devs may not prioritize the single player experience.

There has to be something there though. I've been playing Onward almost daily for maybe 6 years. I definitely don't get the same behavior you're describing. However, I only play multiplayer co-op. I have never tried single player. I run it on an Oculus CV1 and a Vive Pro. That shouldn't make a difference per say. I am just illustrating that I run it on 2 different computers and neither one do what you are describing. However - I have seen that. It used to be the only way the AI behaved in v 1.7 from maybe 2 years ago. It is possible they left the 1.7 logic in single player out of laziness, deprioritizing, or whatever.

I'll try a single player match tonight and see if I can replicate this. Meanwhile, see if you can do the passworded multiplayer thing and compare the behavior. It would be nice to know if there really is a difference in the two versions. Frankly, I wouldn't mind taking on the sea of suicidal AI again. It might be a refreshing change of pace.

[joe.alton1]

Originally posted by Nikolay-97:

Originally posted by 36 bald fat lives with parents:

Well, this is a rough one right now.

First, you may have experienced one of the co-op AI bugs that happens when all enemies just know where you are, shoot through walls, etc. That's a glitch. It happens enough to be annoying but it is not all the time. I'd say I see it about once a week. The answer is to leave the server and start a new one.

The difficulty of the AI - if indeed this is happening to you all the time - it is positively a skill issue. Play more. The suppressed pistols have a range. In CQB maps indoors it might be a greater distance, but I don't know for sure. Just seems so at times. That is how it would be in real life. Suppressed pistols are anything but silent. They sound like firecrackers. A large part of why I tend to avoid suppressors in Onward is that they are too quiet, and not similar to any suppressors I have heard in real life. So you can expect them to rush you with a suppressed weapon but up to a certain range only.

Eventually you will see rookie as a joke of a setting that is far too easy to waste your time with. It is the single greatest identifier of a server I don't need to be on unless I feel like some serious pistol practice or knifing everything.

That being said - the AI will likely see no attention any time soon. AI is usually on the back end of priorities in dev shops, especially in non-PVP scenarios. They had talked about improvements for a while, and we recently saw some changes with animations that may have included behavioral changes. I wouldn't get my hopes up that another patch addressing AI would be slated for the year. When I made games, AI was never a priority for some stupid reason... oh wait, I know the reason. Idiot publishers.

This game is still very playable in spite of the many issues it currently has. If you are looking for a forgiving experience, any of the others you likely hear along side Onward, like Pavlov and Contractors, are going to be a lot easier on the player. Onward tries to force you to play slower and more tactical. It was a lot better at this before the quest ruined it, but it still has plenty of the skeleton of the original game that made you think twice before crossing the road.

Give it another shot. Slow down. Make use of the tools. Know when to camp and when to stick and move. Practice until its muscle memory.

Thanks for the reply.
But my problem is absolutely not experience with this type of tactical titles: I'm a veteran with hundreds of hours between SWAT 4, Ground Branch and Ready or Not since launch.
And my first tactical game was the first Ghost Recon twenty years ago, when I was young. Also Hidden & Dangerous II, Socom and many more...

I'm used to having a methodical step and full attention, with tactical management of the team.

But the AI is the problem here. I play offline, so it's not even some server's fault.
I repeat. From the first shot fired, everyone in maps comes rushing me like they were fearless zombies.
It's not realistic. It's not tactical. It doesn't happen in any other "tactical game".

Among other things, I discovered comments from other users and I seem to have understood that after a not too old update this AI bug happened. So this didn't happen before and many players complain nowadays.

So I hope it gets fixed.
For me it would be like playing Ground Branch but VR.

Yeah, you should see if you can refund the game. I've requested and hopefully it'll succeed.

[36 bald fat lives with parents]

Single player seems to operate same as multiplayer for me. The AI may not be bright, but it isn't suicide rushing me or alerting the whole map. I tried it on Bazaar.

If there is more to study here, you will have to start listing specs. What HMD. If tethered, what is the PC specs? And then what was the map you chose, and what was your loadout?

Otherwise, I'd just do what joe is suggesting. The game has given some people particular issues. Just because I don't experience the same thing doesn't mean you're not experiencing something out of the ordinary. But if there is something to fix here, they have to know how to replicate it.

[Nikolay-97]

Originally posted by 36 bald fat lives with parents:

Single player seems to operate same as multiplayer for me. The AI may not be bright, but it isn't suicide rushing me or alerting the whole map. I tried it on Bazaar.

If there is more to study here, you will have to start listing specs. What HMD. If tethered, what is the PC specs? And then what was the map you chose, and what was your loadout?

Otherwise, I'd just do what joe is suggesting. The game has given some people particular issues. Just because I don't experience the same thing doesn't mean you're not experiencing something out of the ordinary. But if there is something to fix here, they have to know how to replicate it.

I try Afghanistan map, ship and suburban. As equipment: m16a4 with silencer and holograph, M9

My pc: i5 9400F, rtx 2060, 16 gb ram

[36 bald fat lives with parents]

And what headset? I assume a non quest unless you are using a cable with a Q2. That could be pretty important though.

[Nikolay-97]

Originally posted by 36 bald fat lives with parents:

And what headset? I assume a non quest unless you are using a cable with a Q2. That could be pretty important though.

Im using Meta Quest 2 with a cable of Syntech (3 mt)

In any case I've played a lot of solo and co-op matches with random people and maybe I get the point.

The enemies always tend to push the position of the players, so you always have to move, all the time. Engage at one point and then move somewhere else to lose track. Or they will all follow you together.

it is an unusual approach of these enemies for me, but I understand and appreciate this way to fight.
it's inspiring

[36 bald fat lives with parents]

Exactly. Not the brightest AI on earth, but that's the basic idea.

The AI spawns in 10 at a time. On spawn in, they will react to the sounds as below.

They Chase gunfire from enemies.
They chase gunfire from suppressed weapons if they are close enough.
They don't chase gunfire from other AI.
They don't chase explosions from grenades, flashes, or c4.
They don't hear you talk or walk.
They don't react to other AI being shot from suppressed weapons if they are far enough away.
They don't hear you dropping things on the floor.

If a player is shot down, they tend to crowd over the body.
They will not leave bodies to chase down new sounds until they return to their normal walk.

Keep in mind that the AI follows the sounds as listed above. So in general you tend to be followed. But as you kill them off in groups of 2, they will respawn in (and often in areas you just cleared) where they will then follow whatever qualifying sounds you are making. So you could have 8 following you, and 2 spawn in right in front of you. Or any combination from all spawn points.

Constantly on the move isn't exactly a surefire tactic, but it does help to not be sitting in one spot unless you know for sure there is no spawn point behind you. That will come with experience.

The game was not always like this. The AI used to spawn in all at once and you had to hunt them legitimately. Quest couldn't handle that, so we now have this random spawn in nonsense. Given the state of the developers, it is not likely we will see any updates to this logic any time soon. But who knows? Time will tell.

[Nikolay-97]

Originally posted by 36 bald fat lives with parents:

Exactly. Not the brightest AI on earth, but that's the basic idea.

The AI spawns in 10 at a time. On spawn in, they will react to the sounds as below.

They Chase gunfire from enemies.
They chase gunfire from suppressed weapons if they are close enough.
They don't chase gunfire from other AI.
They don't chase explosions from grenades, flashes, or c4.
They don't hear you talk or walk.
They don't react to other AI being shot from suppressed weapons if they are far enough away.
They don't hear you dropping things on the floor.

If a player is shot down, they tend to crowd over the body.
They will not leave bodies to chase down new sounds until they return to their normal walk.

Keep in mind that the AI follows the sounds as listed above. So in general you tend to be followed. But as you kill them off in groups of 2, they will respawn in (and often in areas you just cleared) where they will then follow whatever qualifying sounds you are making. So you could have 8 following you, and 2 spawn in right in front of you. Or any combination from all spawn points.

Constantly on the move isn't exactly a surefire tactic, but it does help to not be sitting in one spot unless you know for sure there is no spawn point behind you. That will come with experience.

The game was not always like this. The AI used to spawn in all at once and you had to hunt them legitimately. Quest couldn't handle that, so we now have this random spawn in nonsense. Given the state of the developers, it is not likely we will see any updates to this logic any time soon. But who knows? Time will tell.

Very interesting. Thank you so much for your help.

But how often do they respawn? By what criteria?

[36 bald fat lives with parents]

Originally posted by Nikolay-97:

But how often do they respawn? By what criteria?

It's pretty basic. They spawn in groups of 2. So each time an enemy is killed, it checks how many are currently alive. If there are less than 9, it spawns in as many groups as it can to ensure there are 10 active AI alive at any moment until the reserve pool is exhausted. There may be delays between spawns, but I don't think I have noticed any. Not more than a couple seconds or so.

AI can definitely spawn right behind you in an area you just cleared. Be warned. It will anger you every time it happens, which is not supposed to be often. They are supposed to spawn a minimum distance from you, but it can sometimes seem unreasonably close.

There are glitches though. If the host switches players mid round, it breaks this utility and nothing else spawns in. So if you find yourself on an empty map and your watch says there are like 20 left, then you know the host switched and you have to give up and go back to the tent. Very annoying. Lots of new players don't know this is a current bug so when you join a lobby you could find yourself on a glitched server waiting for the new people to realize they will never find the remaining bad guys.

That bug is known. Who knows when they will address it.

If you want to find me in game to talk over whatever you want to know about, you can always find me almost every day between 7-9 PM MST (GMT - 7 hours). I only play PvE. Not against other humans. I'll be on in a couple hours from now. Same name in game as I have here.

[Nikolay-97]

Originally posted by 36 bald fat lives with parents:

Originally posted by Nikolay-97:

But how often do they respawn? By what criteria?

It's pretty basic. They spawn in groups of 2. So each time an enemy is killed, it checks how many are currently alive. If there are less than 9, it spawns in as many groups as it can to ensure there are 10 active AI alive at any moment until the reserve pool is exhausted. There may be delays between spawns, but I don't think I have noticed any. Not more than a couple seconds or so.

AI can definitely spawn right behind you in an area you just cleared. Be warned. It will anger you every time it happens, which is not supposed to be often. They are supposed to spawn a minimum distance from you, but it can sometimes seem unreasonably close.

There are glitches though. If the host switches players mid round, it breaks this utility and nothing else spawns in. So if you find yourself on an empty map and your watch says there are like 20 left, then you know the host switched and you have to give up and go back to the tent. Very annoying. Lots of new players don't know this is a current bug so when you join a lobby you could find yourself on a glitched server waiting for the new people to realize they will never find the remaining bad guys.

That bug is known. Who knows when they will address it.

If you want to find me in game to talk over whatever you want to know about, you can always find me almost every day between 7-9 PM MST (GMT - 7 hours). I only play PvE. Not against other humans. I'll be on in a couple hours from now. Same name in game as I have here.

Many thanks for your instructions.

I will be honored to have you as a fellow sufferer in paramilitary operations.

Except that being Italian, my time zone is CET. Then meeting will be more difficult. But I have a lot of hope.

cheers



nb: The respawn bug on host change happened to me yesterday with random people. LOL.