Arena Training Legitimately Too Hard

[Beemer]

Some of you may have had an easier time because the way your class works, but for those close-range classes, like my Grappler, this is another story. The reason the bot is legitimately too hard is because it is constantly reading your inputs. When you run away from the bot, it knows you are running away. When you approach it, it reads your inputs and sees that you are approaching it. This way it can always remain in the sweet spot. Too far for you to hit them, but just perfect for the bot to land the exact same skill you just used. Take, for example, the fact that the entire combo of Grappler is based off of the High Kick. If I land it, I get to do my full combo. If the bot lands it, he gets to do his entire combo. It's just that simple. When the bot is always in the sweet spot, however, you will miss your kick 9 times out of 10, and the bot will take that opportunity to use his.

Keep in mind, this is normal. This is the first training quest you get for arena. The bot isn't unbeatable, but it's so extremely hard for someone who is inexperienced, which is the purpose of the FIRST quest. This would be more optimal for a "hard mode" training, rather than normal.

And don't say that I don't have skill. This isn't about skill. No matter what you do, the bot will always have the upper hand because it has the data immediately as you press a key. There is no reaction time. I even tried tricking it by rushing towards a wall, so it would follow, then turning around and using my kick in the same frame. Too bad it counters this completely because a kick used slightly after the first one will always counter it.

I'm simply saying that it's the normal mode. It should at least have some sort of enforced reaction timer. If I was able to run away, then turn around immediately and use my kick, it would be exactly like real pvp because humans don't have a reaction time like the bot. It should never be immediate.

[joj0.st4r]

ok so the bot is hard
whats the problem?

do you think playing against real humans is going to be a fair fight?
no they will trap you and force you to move so they can then land good combos on you

[Fuyuki]

pvp works differently then pve but one think for sure is that the bots arent reading ur inputs, if they were they're actually stop doing stupid stuff

their AI is very stupid, they fall for the simplest strategic tricks, not mind games like u think ur doing

u just dont know how it works

[Falcone]

Try approaching with Seismic Crash, diagonally up/down. Shoulder Tackle is also great since it's super armored and you can immediately cancel into an upward Fling to start a juggle. Sliding grab with any of your grabs will also work (Again, diagonally).
Once you launch the bot, repeating just XXX>Z is fine enough. Use 2-3 grabs as he's about to hit the aerial juggle limit (Shown on the hp bar) then get out and approach again. Repeat until dead.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by Fuyuki:

pvp works differently then pve but one think for sure is that the bots arent reading ur inputs, if they were they're actually stop doing stupid stuff

This is wrong. This is entirely wrong.

Originally posted by MonsterGogo!:

Try approaching with Seismic Crash, diagonally up/down.

This is the problem, and how I am 100% sure that it reads your input, because when you use Seismic Crash, it counters nearly 100% of the time with a kick.

Originally posted by joj0.st4r:

ok so the bot is hard
whats the problem?

The problem is that no human acts like the bot does. The bot does not make mistakes. Humans make mistakes. Not only that, but the bot also perfectly lines up to the point where it will always counter you.

Then I try playing defensively, which is more promising, but if I make any mistake the bot gets me into a combo also nearly 100% of the time. The reason playing defensively is more promising is because I am not pressing any movement keys. The bot reacts to pressing movement keys so it can counter you and stay in the sweet spot.

I have been fighting the bot for over 2 hours, trying everything I can to win. I know it's not unbeatable, but I also know that it's definitely too hard for a NORMAL training. I am trying just to do the quest and continue so I can unlock the rest of my abilities. I am limited to lowbie abilities until I beat the bot.

[Fuyuki]

Originally posted by Beemer:

This is wrong. This is entirely wrong.

bite me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aNjD__I-p8&feature=youtu.be
EDIT: almost forgot to mention; this is the 1st time i even touched any either of the 2 graps in pvp

[Beemer]

Originally posted by Fuyuki:

bite me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aNjD__I-p8&feature=youtu.be
EDIT: almost forgot to mention; this is the 1st time i even touched any either of the 2 graps in pvp

Did you even watch your own video? Its so damn obvious how the bots mimic your input, it's not even funny.

[Fuyuki]

because using the z launcher as a defensive maneuver due to the fact that almost every classes' z launching skill comes with super armor on a very short cd is basic pvp bread and butter, the same goes for launching the opponent into the air though various ways to juggle them too with their x-string and z launcher is even mor basic, thats not mimicking inputs, thats knowing wut to do in a most likely of situation and acting on it which the AI doesnt hav a mind to not do

the bot is scripted to be super aggressive and capable of doing basic combos + gravity extensions and defensive maneuver so they use the same basic stuff every player would be using or r u saying thats somehow unfair, the only real differences between a newbie in pvp and the AI is that a newbie wouldnt know how to react property or forget having certain option/counters to certain stuff and while the AI walks into the most basic of traps and baits

the point of my vid is to show that someone whos has never touched a grap b4 in pvp but has mor then enough knowledge of how pvp works in general can easily do this quest with the only real wall being the sword master at the end with her long combos, many approaches and easy recatches which has nothing to do with reading inputs which doesnt even exist and "the entire combo of Grappler is based off of the High Kick" in ur original post is completely false because if u havnt noticed it ive actually done some combos without starting it off with a high kick in my vid

i stand by wut i 1st said and u specifically quote; that "pvp works differently then pve" which u seem to be in denial of likely to fuel ur misinformed notion that the bot is cheating by reading ur inputs or r u incapable of seeing the irony of someone inexperience in pvp complain that he think he knows wuts wrong with it?

[joj0.st4r]

you could just skip training and just do pvp
see how well you do against human beings instead

[Khaz]

Hi I'm necroing this thread just to say the arena training is the most unimaginably unfair thing I have ever seen in a game and I legitimately despise whoever is responsible.

The round two opponent is absurdly overpowered. You have nothing to work with, the AI responds with literally frame perfect timing no matter what you do, they're about 100x stronger than you, there is no concievable way to win when they have superior moves at their disposal allowing them to hit you first before you can even get on the same plane.

I DON'T EVEN WANT TO PLAY THE ARENA. TRYING TO GET PAST BASIC TRAINING HAS MADE ME HATE IT SO MUCH I'M CONSIDERING QUITTING THE ENTIRE GAME OUT OF SPITE. I JUST WANT THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ QUEST OUT OF MY ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ LOG.

[joj0.st4r]

why not go train on the dummy untill you can string some basic combos together maybe try to actually juggle the bot?
and then when you understand that pressing and holding x is not realy a good combo(unlesss ur a mspit) you are ready to face the bots that actually hit back
also
try to move
usualy works very well
standing still or going in very straight lines are usualy begging the bots(and human opponents) to kill you

[Khaz]

Yes I'm putting together combos, usually good ones. I put up a decent fight against human opponents who know what they're doing.

I understand how the game is played, but the opponent simply has way more tools to work with. You cannot get any horizontal distance on him or he nukes you, so you hang around playing with vertical spacing and cooldowns to get a launcher in and land a combo, but the AI has frame-perfect timing and will always land their move first if one is off cooldown, which SOMEthing always is.

I've spent multiple entire days practising this one fight at this point. I wouldn't post ranting like this if this fight was reasonably possible. I am clearly missing some kind of cheap exploit that you need to repeatedly abuse to win. Someone tell me what it is, because there's no strategy or skill involved when it's an AI with clairvoyance and flawless timing, it just beats you exactly the same way over and over and over.

[Fuyuki]

I am clearly missing some kind of cheap exploit that you need to repeatedly abuse to win. Someone tell me what it is, because there's no strategy or skill involved when it's an AI with clairvoyance and flawless timing, it just beats you exactly the same way over and over and over.

its this

You cannot get any horizontal distance on him or he nukes you, so you hang around playing with vertical spacing and cooldowns to get a launcher in and land a combo

its an AI you're facing, not a real live person behind a screen and keyboard so stop treating it as one and fight it as if this was pve instead cept you're under limitations

if its anything i've learned from fighting training apcs in pvp just for the tp quest is that they can fall for some of the stupidest stuff simply because it isnt a real person behind them, why bother trying to get a launch in to combo them when you get better results with unfair tactics such as kiting or simply throwing out a pokes until they die, a real player can learn to counter such tactics if not discover a way around it while AIs fall for it practically every single time
the 1 thing to not do or at least avoid as much as possible is any exchange of blows or risky combos if not a crosscounter because they're scripted to take advantage of every opening as much as possible and will be able to successfully exploit every opening because they dnt have the fault of being human

hell sometimes even this logic gets flipped around and the best strat is to be as direct as possible because the class you're facing isnt scripted for a head on approach because they're not suited for it

[Khaz]

Okay, so in the case of M. Gunner facing the Launcher, what is the strategy. I've tried pokes, but his are stronger and easier to land, getting any horizontal distance isn't an option with him. If you try to approach vertically and launch you have four options. Try Z and his Z lands first, BBQ is same deal. Grenades rely on him being dumb enough to walk into them, which seems to stop happening whenever he gets low. Windmill kick to launch is hard to combo and lacks super armor but seems to be the only reliable way to land a hit, but he can just armor launch you instead which seems to happen most of the time.

Sometimes you can sit still in one spot and he'll flail around missing you for a while, but you have nothing that can land on him from that position, his launching shot has a wider vertical range than mine, grenades can't be directed vertically... He's just waiting for you to make a mistake, which you have to eventually.

I've gotten close by sheer luck before but in terms of a strategy to reliably win if you're just good enough? I don't see one.

[Fuyuki]

yea im gonna have to agree as launchers is 1 of those classes with a lot of pokes and can actually kill an opponent solely on it but its not impossible

as a launcher he should be using hand cannons so his rising shot is only melee range, you can snipe him with rising shot from afar because of that and keep off his x-axis as much as possible, rely on skills like multi headshot and wildshot to do as much dmg as possible since those very hard or impossible to avoid once caught and "avoid as much as possible is any exchange of blows or risky combos if not a crosscounter" applies even more so simply because they're using hand cannons so you're almost guarantee to lose each time you trade hits since hand cannons makes them slower and because they're slower their z launcher and bbq has a longer animation so if you exchange with them yours will end sooner then theirs and make you suspectable to being launched/grabbed by them

here, my match up against both apc launchers i did just now, noticed how i barely even bother with combos, a lot of pokes and most of my dmg done to them is through wildshot and multi headshot

its been a few years since ive done pvp with mranger and that was just the TP quest back then so during mlauncher fight i was still figuring things out but the time i fought flauncher it was already several rounds later and by then i've more or less gotten a better grasp of mranger works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETx4Erk4SjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vACYJPTcBP8

[Khaz]

I appreciate you putting the effort into responding. I have to agree, your strategy is great and looks like it works perfectly.

There's just one problem: You're not allowed to learn Wild Shot, Multi Headshot or Death Hawk for this mission, only the skills above them in the tree. This is basically the entire reason for my complaint, it forces you to beat this opponent using nothing but your most basic tools, which might be possible if they were human and you could mess with them but having to beat a lightning fast AI without any useful pokes, just superior combo landing, is bruuuutal.