Excessive escorts?

[Chevalier]

It's early 1941, and it feels as if there are as many escorts as merchants. That isn't actuality, but it sure feels that way. This last convoy had at least eight warships that I saw; no idea how many there actually were. According to what I remember--and along with recent research--the ratio was more 1 to 10:

"Ideally, a convoy of 60 merchant ships would have an escort of at least 2 destroyers and 4 corvettes, a ratio of 1 escort for every 10 merchant vessels. Due to the critical shortage of destroyers and corvettes early in the war, however, the first convoys had only 2 RCN escorts."

[USGrant]

Agree. In 1939 virtually every convoy has 3 or more escorts. Even those with only 3 or 4 merchants/tankers. Doesn't seem right.

[XLjedi]

I just don't bother attacking convoys anymore. At 100% settings you pull like 5-8 escorts and it's just not realistic. Might as well just attack a roaming ASW patrol.

[Feltan]

I agree. The algorithm for escorts per convoy needs some tweaking. In the early war, escorts simple kept the submarines submerged while the convoy sailed away.

[Blind Faith]

I'm in 1939/40 and have come across a few convoys up the English east coast have two or three escorts and only two merchants, in one case three escorts and one merchant. The numbers do seem wrong. I don't want a turkey shoot each time but it seems to me like England has as many escorts as merchants available which is definitely not correct.

[cm138]

100% i agree

[Doc Moriarty]

I have seen convoys with 4 escorts and 1 freighter. They probably lost some freighters? But all in all I agree that the number of escorts is often way too high.

[Razorback1911]

I'll chime in too. I guess it's to make sure there is a challenge for us. But the other day I had what felt like the entire RN after me, with 7 destroyers and 5 corvettes circling my position (and still getting away...).

There might also be another reason fir this. It might be to ensure the convoy is still partly protected even after an attack. That is because there is a funny AI behaviour/bug that if escorts are drawn away from the convoy for too long they split off and go their own way, leaving the convoy unprotected further down. It actually became a tactic of mine at some point to snipe a ship from a distance and draw away the escorts and keep them busy for a while, only to return to the unprotected convoy later on and feast....

[ShepherdOfCats]

Are you all playing on the hardest AI difficulty? I cut it back to medium because I've read on here that the number of escorts is tied to AI difficulty setting.

(I think they need separate options for AI behavior, and number of AI)

[Bloodclot]

I read that also... Thinking of going medium and then adding Asdic mod to boost the escorts detection capabilities that way they are few but deadly... I have deadly skies, warship accuracy and other mods to make the game challenging as hell but having all those escorts swarm you, it crosses challenging to ridiculous.

If medium does lower escort numbers then I'll try it and I'll download Asdic... Comments state they get detected from 4km away, that I can live with but the escort swarming I can't.

I need to stop starting new campaigns and play the game properly though lol

It's one reason why I don't like watching Uboat on YouTube, it's way too cheaty and arcade without mods to remove those icons on the map when submerged and arcade with the amount of escorts.

Hopefully someone who plays medium AI can confirm

[Ramseur]

Talking about watching videos, the best ones to watch IMO for realism are ones by people like Taff in Exile..I thought this video was excellent "Silent Hunter 5 | Turning Point | Patrol Log 29 - Last Light" - Navigation, hunting, charts, evasion, it has the lot. Really enjoying playing Uboat but their videos just do not really do it for me,

[Squid]

I play on medium AI difficulty and generally convoys have at least 4 escorts. Even this is far too many early war.

[dbond1]

Four is FAR too many? How many does that leave? Two? One?

There was no set number during the war. Some formations had thin escort, some had heavy. Some had twenty or more. Some had three. Sometimes escorts from one un-engaged convoy would be diverted to another that was under attack.

So I don't have a problem really with the number of escorts in UBOAT, other than the number should seem variable. What I think could use some tweaking is the type of ships comprising the escort group, especially early on, but this would require an expanded ship roster, like ASW trawlers for example. Frigates, sloops, cutters, minelayers. It was really a tatterdemalion fleet in the first couple of years, and all sorts of vessels were pressed in to service. The failure of the Hunt class destroyer was a especially hard blow to the convoy escort plans. So other ships, like corvettes were kept in escort service when they really were not well-suited to the task.

Personally I think the best convoy escort vessels were the Treasury class cutters. Beamy, good habitation and seakeeping, room for survivors. Very well suited to open ocean escort duty.

[ShepherdOfCats]

Originally posted by dbond1:

Four is FAR too many? How many does that leave? Two? One?

One escort for 2-3 merchants is excessive. If the allies had that many escorts to spare, the UBOATs would have never bothered leaving their home ports.

This is the area of the game that kind of falls into the "we can't really make AI challenging enough, so we're going to "bullet-sponge" the AI to try to bridge the gap" that so many games tend to fall into when it comes to difficulty.

(not intending to criticize the devs, creating an AI that is realistic without being 'magical' or just throwing more of them at the player is not easy)

[dbond1]

To be fair, the post I responded to was talking about four escorts per convoy, not per three ships.

[XLjedi]

Originally posted by Ramseur:

Talking about watching videos, the best ones to watch IMO for realism are ones by people like Taff in Exile..I thought this video was excellent "Silent Hunter 5 | Turning Point | Patrol Log 29 - Last Light" - Navigation, hunting, charts, evasion, it has the lot. Really enjoying playing Uboat but their videos just do not really do it for me,

If you like to play Uboat at higher realism settings, I have a few videos you might like? I played a lot of modded SH3/4 back in the day, but never really got SH5 to run.