Game design: 1944 start questions

[tequilatibbs]

So I have started playing later and later careers and really enjoy it, but I have a couple of questions:

Would a Type 7c/41 go on patrol in 1944 with no radar detector, none, "♥♥♥♥ it"?
Because this is how the game sends you out. Maybe it did happen irl, can anyone cast some light?

Also going out with the most basic hydrophone in 1944? (not really an issue tbh)

Also going out with insufficient officers? I always console cheat myself an extra radio man and extra leader to match the basic historical set up of 2 radio shifts, 2 engine shifts, and 3 watch shifts which works very well allowing 24hr radar detection, 24 hr watch crew, and overlap for navigation. I know you can fiddle it to work in vanilla but it isnt optimal and it doesnt make sense to me that they would send a boat out with half a crew. Did that actually happen? I am not talking about sailors, I know thats a game pathing limitation.
This seems like an silly and forced.

Why is the maximum air before scrubbing 9 hours? We know from ktbs that they would regularly spend 12 hours below the surface as a routine, and they could spend up to 72 hours with absorbers and scrubbing when absolutely forced to by disaster.

It seems as though the devs are artificially creating difficulty to account for artificially lowered difficulty. Why not have watch crews that are as capable as we are at seeing smoke on the horizon but escorts which can also see us at realistic daytime ranges. Instead we have blind escorts and blind, insufficient watch crew. How many of us have ploughed into a destroyer group yet they are are watch remain oblivious?
Why is it that we dont have radar detectors in 1944 or enough staff to man them but also the plane are lacking in threat?

I love this game but the difficult balance always seems approached from the wrong angle. They artificially make things too easy and then have to artificially tune things to be hard in a silly, nonsensical way.

This ended up bring a sprawling rant, apologies xD

[Alex Paen (ljekio)]

In cases with blind watchmen, the most funny thing is that the radio operator always knows about the contact before they do, and in order for this knowledge to be transmitted to the watch, it is necessary to point out the contact to them with his periscope.

[Red_Seven_]

I guess we won't see proper balancing without a rework of the AI and that most likely won't happen with or before the release version.

Everything else has to be done through artifical measures. Nevertheless the different start dates might just be copypasta of each other, so there was no intention to further increase difficulty besides the already increased difficulty through the allied technological advance. You simply start later but with the same setup and thereby you are at a disadvantage.

It seems there just wasn't much effort put into the different starts except the rsearch that's already done.

Also as I never use the radar detectors I really don't mind having only 5 officers at any time. Usually I only use 5 officers and 2 crewmen (maybe some in reserve since the random events regularly take some crewmen out) as long as I'm not testing stuff.

[tequilatibbs]

Originally posted by Red_Seven_:

Also as I never use the radar detectors I really don't mind having only 5 officers at any time. Usually I only use 5 officers and 2 crewmen (maybe some in reserve since the random events regularly take some crewmen out) as long as I'm not testing stuff.

If you dont have radar detectors and someone to man it in vanilla 1944 start you are completely surprised by aircraft and only survive because aircraft are so ineffective.

Multiple times ive have been dropped out of time compression to aircraft alarm day or night and found the aircraft are seconds from dropping bombs on me, allowing no time to react. Except it doesnt matter because they are programmed to miss.

Now, of course being surprised by aircraft is how it should be if you are stupid enough to go out in 44 with no radar detector and not enough officers for basic duties, but that vanilla set up doesnt make sense.

I know that it is possible to not bother with officers at all basically but that doesnt make sense to me. Officers are blind enough in daytime anyway, so relying on just sailors seems mad.

Agreed that a change wont be coming any time soon, but I want to know if it was ever the case that a 7c41 was sent out in 44 without radio detectors or enough officers for a basic compliment for 24hr running of duties. Surely you would just promote a sailor if you completely ran out of officers?

Agreed also that it is probably an oversight, but really its a problem which ends up touching many parts of the game: enemy ai nerfed to balance poor crew performance.

Granted the following comes from a place of ignorance, but surely its just the case of changing numbers?: Increase escort daytime vision and increase sailor daytime vision = then you dont bump into escort in time compression and you dont have the weird situation where something is plain as day to you but your crew cant see it. difficulty is balanced. Next send out boats with proper compliment of officers and equipment, 2 radio, 2 engine, 3 leaders = basic duties always performed. Aircraft can be detected = aircraft accuracy number is increased to balance.

So I am not asking for a rework of the AI, just a rework of the numbers.

I am far too worked up about this though i know xD

[Red_Seven_]

Originally posted by tequilatibbs:

Multiple times ive have been dropped out of time compression to aircraft alarm day or night and found the aircraft are seconds from dropping bombs on me, allowing no time to react. Except it doesnt matter because they are programmed to miss.

Now, of course being surprised by aircraft is how it should be if you are stupid enough to go out in 44 with no radar detector and not enough officers for basic duties, but that vanilla set up doesnt make sense.

I've never felt any difference between an air attack in '39 and another in '44 besides them being much more frequent and the rocket rail thing.

Also the radar detectors always felt completely useless as their detection range was so limited that even at night my crew would spot them at around the same distance. I don't know if they changed it with the beta, but before its only purpose was to block your UZO view just like the RDF antenna...

I also don't get this completely overdone call for historical accuracy or the need to have everything as accurate as possible. We don't even have a globe in the game but rather a cyllinder and people are complianing because the color of a gauge is slightly off from what it was irl. So what does it mean if there was or wasn't a boat going out without a radar detector? It's a gamified artificial element, perhaps to increase difficulty.

[tequilatibbs]

Originally posted by Red_Seven_:

I've never felt any difference between an air attack in '39 and another in '44 besides them being much more frequent and the rocket rail thing.

Also the radar detectors always felt completely useless as their detection range was so limited that even at night my crew would spot them at around the same distance. I don't know if they changed it with the beta, but before its only purpose was to block your UZO view just like the RDF antenna...

I also don't get this completely overdone call for historical accuracy or the need to have everything as accurate as possible. We don't even have a globe in the game but rather a cyllinder and people are complianing because the color of a gauge is slightly off from what it was irl. So what does it mean if there was or wasn't a boat going out without a radar detector? It's a gamified artificial element, perhaps to increase difficulty.

In my experience (certainly in beta), radar detectors do work. Easily giving me enough time to access if the aircraft was on an attack course and decide whether to dive or not. Without radar detector we are talking about them being 5 seconds from dropping their bombs.

I get other people being unamused by the historical accuracy thing, but I am not asking for the exact quota of officers and crew, just one which makes sense. By making sense i mean enough to man the stations 24hrs so you arent periodically driving blind (or close enough to). And secondly i am lamenting the way the game has been balanced - which i also think doesnt make sense (escorts and my crew blind).

In a fantasy rpg set in medieval times, it makes sense for me that a wizard is capable firing magic from his hands, but it wouldnt make sense to me for him to whip out and UZI and start spraying away. That is what I want from "historical accuracy" in this regard.

[Red_Seven_]

Originally posted by tequilatibbs:

By making sense i mean enough to man the stations 24hrs so you arent periodically driving blind

I don't get where this isn't possible.

There are many terrible crew management guides out there I know, but you can simply use something similar to what Ruby put in the tutorials/guides section here. It's one of the few at least considering 5 officers starting crews.

Most others (except the outdated tutorial from McDewgle) seem to not even understand the crew management in detail.

[ramjbjb]

Originally posted by tequilatibbs:

So I have started playing later and later careers and really enjoy it, but I have a couple of questions:

Would a Type 7c/41 go on patrol in 1944 with no radar detector, none, "♥♥♥♥ it"?
Because this is how the game sends you out. Maybe it did happen irl, can anyone cast some light?

U-boats were upgraded all the time and BDU was well aware that the battle of the Atlantic was a battle of technology as well as of resources. No, by 1944 no submarine would've sailed out without some kind of radar warning equipment.

Also going out with insufficient officers?

That's a little bit more credible. The U-boat force went through a massive growth during WW2. 1154 of them were commissioned during WW2, and indeed the force went through serious manpower shortages. They literally would throw anyone they could inside an uboat, and it still was never enough.

As for officers, the training program of the uboat force was seriously overstrained by midwar in order to produce enough of them, and that was at a time where fuel oil still could be found, and the Baltic was more or less a german lake in which training could be conducted with too much interference. By 1944 even that was a problem.

Why is the maximum air before scrubbing 9 hours? We know from ktbs that they would regularly spend 12 hours below the surface as a routine, and they could spend up to 72 hours with absorbers and scrubbing when absolutely forced to by disaster.

Known issue, and one that until Beta was fixed with mods. I'm not sure if the "more air" mod works with the beta or not, but don't worry, if the devs don't fix it, a modder will :).

Why is it that we dont have radar detectors in 1944 or enough staff to man them but also the plane are lacking in threat?

I love this game but the difficult balance always seems approached from the wrong angle. They artificially make things too easy and then have to artificially tune things to be hard in a silly, nonsensical way.

This ended up bring a sprawling rant, apologies xD

You're reading too much into the dev's intentions at least in what regards to the latewar careers. I just think those careers were put in a long time ago and the equipment wasn't well thought out. Proven by the fact that the 1944 boat has a schnorkel, but also has a deck gun (when fitting a schnorkel the deck gun was taken away). Oh, and that the equipped torpedoes are all T1s and T2s with first-gen pistols. Which makes no sense.

So, basically the 1944 Type VII is the same as the 1939 Type VII, plus a schnorkel. Clearly shows that the whole thing is an afterthought. I seriously doubt this is carried like this for release. Would make no sense whatsoever.