Dear devs: Type IX would be much more fitting than Type XXI

[Dreepa]

So I have read, that if a new boat would be implemented, it would most likely be the type XXI.

I think in terms of what the game already offers (world map, east coart of america, basically huge theatre of war) much more gameplay could be squeezed out of the available time period adding the long range type IX boat instead of the "experimental" XXI.

Additionally, many assets or parts could be re-used as the type IX is somewhat similar to the VII and you would have a bit less work in the implementation.

Overall I belive the added value would be much higher for the overall gameplay and campaign, with a bit less work involved. Win win.

[Red_Seven_]

Which added value would there be with a type IX? There would be (most likely) no gameplay difference to the type VII except the additional range, which you already have through milk cows.

The type XXI was a complete change in doctrine as it was somehow one of the first 'real' submarines instead of a torpedo boat with the capability to dive live the type VII and IX.

[Dreepa]

Operation Paukenschlag and all associated deep penetration atlantic missions.

The type XXI comes so late in the war, that the game is close to over once you get them.

[captainpanda34]

+1, type IX offers a follow up of historical perspective, whereas XXI is just fun like "what if the aliens had hlped the germans with flying saucers coming from a secret base on the dark side of te moon". I'd like both, but would be more interested in IX.
Expected gameplay difference would be : longer diving times, longer turning radius, extra torpedoes and range.

[ELB]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

The type XXI comes so late in the war, that the game is close to over once you get them.

Thats your narrow mind not understanding the concept "game".

[Red_Seven_]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Operation Paukenschlag and all associated deep penetration atlantic missions.

The type XXI comes so late in the war, that the game is close to over once you get them.

Paukenschlag was done with both type VII and type IX. And please don't start an argument over this, we already had this here before.

But still, what would be the difference to doing it with a type VII with refuelling along the way? Practically the same boat with some minor technical differences but the complete same playstyle. It's still a dive capable torpedo boat.

[Ziggurt]

Originally posted by Red_Seven_:

The type XXI was a complete change in doctrine as it was somehow one of the first 'real' submarines instead of a torpedo boat with the capability to dive live the type VII and IX.

"As Dönitz well understood, a small number of even superlative boats would
have produced little change in the Atlantic. The only hope for an effective naval
interdiction strategy lay in building the Type XXI in numbers similar to, or
greater than, those in which the Type VIIs had been constructed before 1943,
thereby overcoming simultaneously the Allied superiorities in technology and in
materiel."

From Innovation for Its Own Sake: The Type XXI U-boat by Marcus O. Jones
https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1326&context=nwc-review

So, IMHO, unless you by doctrine actually speak of tactical employment of the submarine*, I disagree. That real doctrinal change would come post-war later with reactor engines, submarine launched missiles, wire guided torpedoes and Albacore design (which granted is gradual evaluation in design, which also XXI is part of) .

From gameplay perspective I can totally understand devs adding XXI as long as its unreliability due to drop in build in quality by late war is not implemented but historically speaking it is irrelevant for the WW2.


That being said - imho, I think that currently status of the game entails that devs should focus on finishing the base game. I feel that core concepts in-game still have rough edges.

[Dreepa]

Originally posted by ELB:

Originally posted by Dreepa:

The type XXI comes so late in the war, that the game is close to over once you get them.

Thats your narrow mind not understanding the concept "game".

Wow, just wow. Do you always resort to insult on the first occasion?
Directly going to hyperbole?
Maybe your mind is so expanded that you should consider a narcissistic disorder?

Uboat does a lot to try to resemble the war with visualization of fronts, news message etc.
Ofc a game can do whatever it wants, but we are talking about a historical WW2 game.
You can DO ANYTHING in a game if you want.

[Red_Seven_]

Originally posted by Ziggurt:

So, IMHO, unless you by doctrine actually speak of tactical employment of the submarine*, I disagree.

Yes, I totally meant to say on a tactical level.

I have around 1k hours in hearts of iron 4 and I should absolutely know better to differentiate between strategical, operational and tactical level and where doctrine belongs to. Don't know why I messed this up here :-/

[Dreepa]

Originally posted by Red_Seven_:

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Operation Paukenschlag and all associated deep penetration atlantic missions.

The type XXI comes so late in the war, that the game is close to over once you get them.

Paukenschlag was done with both type VII and type IX. And please don't start an argument over this, we already had this here before.

But still, what would be the difference to doing it with a type VII with refuelling along the way? Practically the same boat with some minor technical differences but the complete same playstyle. It's still a dive capable torpedo boat.

That's the point. Because it is similar, you have less implementation work. Less new features. More re-usable art assets. And because it is similar, it is available early in the war.

And it still feels like a good upgrade when you are allowed to switch, like it did in SH3.
If the sole criterium for adding new content would be "drastically different playstyle" I think you could throw the whole unlocks and progression out of the window.

But it's what games do. They give you development. You get stronger, more capable etc.
IX is more capable, and you feel like you advance to commander a new boat (if it's done right) and that's a good feeling.

Dangerous Waters, Sub Command etc. all offer multiple vessels to control, but the core gameplay is always the same. Sonar management, TMA, etc.
Still, noone would say: "Remove these boats, they are the same".

[athenian]

In my opinion both Type IX and XXI would be good additions but I don;t think the devs are contemplating adding another sub type. which makes the discussion rather mute

[Red_Seven_]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

That's the point. Because it is similar, you have less implementation work. Less new features. More re-usable art assets. And because it is similar, it is available early in the war.

I never said anything about that being wrong or anything. The only thing i put a question on was your initial statement on the Type IX compared to the Type XXI:

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Overall I belive the added value would be much higher for the overall gameplay and campaign

I still can't see where the same playstyle with just another boat would add much more to the overall gameplay than a completely different type of sub which offers a much bigger variety of options. And - again - this is the only thing I find questionable on what you wrote.

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Still, noone would say: "Remove these boats, they are the same".

And nobody (including myself) said it here, so why bring that up anyways?

[Dreepa]

Because you made it sound like added value is only perceived by drastically different gameplay. So I made an arguement to the extreme, for the sake of it.

I think our definition and perspective of added value drastically differs.

[Red_Seven_]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Because you made it sound like added value is only perceived by drastically different gameplay. So I made an arguement to the extreme, for the sake of it.

I think our definition and perspective of added value drastically differs.

That might actually be the case, but I'm still curious what you think the 'much higher value' of the type IX compared to the type XXI would be...

[Ziggurt]

Originally posted by athenian:

In my opinion both Type IX and XXI would be good additions but I don;t think the devs are contemplating adding another sub type. which makes the discussion rather mute

That assumes that uboat sales numbers go down the drain.

From the very FAQ on this forum:

Q: Are you going to add other types of u-boats to the game?
A: Yes, if game proves to be successful, we would especially like to add XXI Type to the game. We are aware, that historically it hadn't an noticeable impact, but in our game there is some space for altering the history through Kriegsmarine management and technically these boats were a large step forward.

[Dreepa]

Originally posted by Red_Seven_:

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Because you made it sound like added value is only perceived by drastically different gameplay. So I made an arguement to the extreme, for the sake of it.

I think our definition and perspective of added value drastically differs.

That might actually be the case, but I'm still curious what you think the 'much higher value' of the type IX compared to the type XXI would be...

As a game designer, I think in bang for the buck.
What is the added value of the HQ research feature?
What is the added value of the torpedo duds?
What is the added value of "darker nights"?
Why add repetitive no-brainer features like "turn on the diesel/electric generator after diving".

Can you quantify it?
Can you write a formula that measures "added entertainment value" per "manhour spent"?
Can you justify all these features other than "well, we thoughts it's cool, cause we are making the most realistic ww2 subsim management game there is, and we are cool developers, so we add that stuff cause we like it".

In short, the added value of the IX is more content. In the early mid game of the game. Not just in the lategame, as a total gamechanger. The feeling of progression and development, the feeling of a stronger boat. While still staying withing the game's appeal of being a rather realistic war-campaign that resembles a very believable representation of german WW2 submarine operation.