Rules of Engagement?

[wardog3rd]

Hey fellow captains of the Kriegsmarine. I tried searching this but to no avail. I am currently in the Black Pit having a great time sinking unsuspecting merchant ships. I ran into a convoy that had 6 merchant ships and about 10 British escorts. I have sunk the four Allied merchant ships but there are 2 Swedish ships among them (well they have no comrades now). It is May of 41 and from my understanding they are neutral until proven otherwise.

My main question is whether not these ships in this circumstance are actually neutral. If truly neutral than why sail while escorted by the Tommy's. I salivating at the idea of sending these escorts back to England empty handed but a captain of my status cannot ruin his reputation by sinking neutral ships (yes the role play is real).

Can i sink these bastards since the Brits are attempting to protect them?

[Battleshipfree99]

Mc may have explained this in other threads.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/494840/discussions/0/3185740658307518954/

[RimmerA]

If they're in a convoy that's escorted by warships they're a legal target regardless of nationality.

Although I think there's a bug where if they get separated from the convoy they'll revert to neutral status.

[Twelvefield]

Sometimes we roleplay as beta-testers.

[wardog3rd]

Originally posted by RimmerA:

If they're in a convoy that's escorted by warships they're a legal target regardless of nationality.

Although I think there's a bug where if they get separated from the convoy they'll revert to neutral status.

I found something on reddit saying about the same thing. I just wanted to come on here and confirm it. Thanks buddy...

[wardog3rd]

Originally posted by Twelvefield:

Sometimes we roleplay as beta-testers.

The potential for role play is crazy. This is a game one can get easily lost in. They have the journal in the captains deck at his desk and I'll go through and write little pieces on my crew and our status. It's very awesome that they've added this ability. The ability to clothe as well as change the names and features of your crew is great as well. As someone who loves history this game is a 10/10 for me. This game does a great job capturing the moods of what it would be like serving on one of these boats. The seeming infinite lengths of routine and boredom giving way to moments of sheer strategy and terror. Its great the developers did an excellent job allowing the players to see through the eyes of a Uboat crew and what emotions came with it. I also love manual targeting that a huge amount of immersion. I can go on and on about how great this game is.

[wardog3rd]

Originally posted by Twelvefield:

Sometimes we roleplay as beta-testers.

Also the lack of narrative gives the player the ability to form his own. OH and one must definitely go watch DAS BOOT before playing this game.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by RimmerA:

If they're in a convoy that's escorted by warships they're a legal target regardless of nationality.

Although I think there's a bug where if they get separated from the convoy they'll revert to neutral status.

Hi RimmerA,

should a neutral ship remain hostile just because it was in some hostile convoy sometime before?

The only possibility I see is that the merchant ship is identified, the shipname is known and noted on some kind of "blacklist".

Cheers Ruby

[wardog3rd]

Originally posted by Ruby:

Originally posted by RimmerA:

If they're in a convoy that's escorted by warships they're a legal target regardless of nationality.

Although I think there's a bug where if they get separated from the convoy they'll revert to neutral status.

Hi RimmerA,

should a neutral ship remain hostile just because it was in some hostile convoy sometime before?

The only possibility I see is that the merchant ship is identified, the shipname is known and noted on some kind of "blacklist".

Cheers Ruby

I think that would take away from the captains autonomy. Also how would high command collect that information.

[Ruby]

HI wardog3rd,

it's all about the skipper.

Cheers Ruby

[VipreRX]

Originally posted by Ruby:

should a neutral ship remain hostile just because it was in some hostile convoy sometime before?

Until it despawns from its current trip or is destroyed, yes. Whatever hidden tag that makes them valid targets should be applied directly to the ships in a convoy as well instead of to the convoy alone and remain on the merchant regardless of if they fall behind or get isolated during the attack.

[Dewgle]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Mc may have explained this in other threads.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/494840/discussions/0/3185740658307518954/

Thanks, Battleshipfree. To summarize what I was trying to say with my old post:

Originally posted by Deep Water Studio:

(B129 Patch notes)
- Fix: Penalties were assigned in the mission summary for sinking neutral ships in the armed convoys. It was not intended.

- World Simulation: When units present in a convoy move away at a considerable distance, they are now separated from the convoy. They are treated as a separate contact moving forward and will act individually. This fixes various issues and makes many things more practical.

Rules of war dictate that there are no "neutral" ships in armed convoys. Any neutral ship sailing in an armed, allied convoy is to be considered a belligerent aiding the enemy.
And as of patch B129, Uboat simulates this correctly

However if one of those neutral ships breaks off from the main convoy, does that mean they are still a belligerent?

Yes, absolutely. Just because they left the convoy doesn't mean they are no longer carrying supplies to aid the British and shipping documents registered at the point of origin and destination would confirm this. Convoys are planned out weeks in advance and everything is well documented. It has to be. Not only for reasons of commerce but for everything all the way down to the life insurance policies of each merchant sailor.

But what if an allied government wanted to pretend that neutral ship was sailing on it's own the entire time just to vilify the Germans?

No one would bother to forge those documents retroactively just to make the Germans look bad when the world at large was already allied against them. The amount of effort required to retroactively falsify shipping documents on both the shipper and consignee side would far outweigh the benefit. All just to squeeze a few tiny droplets of extra gasoline onto an already blazing fire of anti-German propaganda going strong at the time.

Solution?

The game already has code built in for smugglers, i.e. neutral ships sailing under a false flag. The player can board these neutral ships and inspect them for contraband but this process is not required. The dev diary videos for the B129 patch even explain that the player can sink the neutral even if the inspection didn't yield any results if the player is confident enough. The debriefing will either vindicate or vilify the player's intuition.

So I suggest applying this 'smuggler' tag to every single ship sailing in an armed convoy. That way even if they do get separated from the herd, the player retains the autonomy to inspect them or put a torpedo in their belly.

Players who were paying attention may recognize the name of the ship right away and can flex some (player knowledge). Or they may choose to inspect the ship if they aren't certain or because that player draws a line between what they observe with the ego camera and what their officers can observe (character knowledge).

[schutt]

Counting them as no longer hostile once they seperate from a convoy is not a good solution.When they are in the convoy, they intent to help the enemy therefor should stay legal targets until they discharged their goods.
Otherwise: once a convoy spots a uboat all neutral ship suddenly "decide" to continue without the armed forces and can no longer be attacked. Easy way not to sink. Thats not acceptable.
So in other words i like McDewgles idea... just give it the smuggler attribute or add another attribute...

[wardog3rd]

Originally posted by McDewgle:

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Mc may have explained this in other threads.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/494840/discussions/0/3185740658307518954/

Thanks, Battleshipfree. To summarize what I was trying to say with my old post:

Originally posted by Deep Water Studio:

(B129 Patch notes)
- Fix: Penalties were assigned in the mission summary for sinking neutral ships in the armed convoys. It was not intended.

- World Simulation: When units present in a convoy move away at a considerable distance, they are now separated from the convoy. They are treated as a separate contact moving forward and will act individually. This fixes various issues and makes many things more practical.

Rules of war dictate that there are no "neutral" ships in armed convoys. Any neutral ship sailing in an armed, allied convoy is to be considered a belligerent aiding the enemy.
And as of patch B129, Uboat simulates this correctly

However if one of those neutral ships breaks off from the main convoy, does that mean they are still a belligerent?

Yes, absolutely. Just because they left the convoy doesn't mean they are no longer carrying supplies to aid the British and shipping documents registered at the point of origin and destination would confirm this. Convoys are planned out weeks in advance and everything is well documented. It has to be. Not only for reasons of commerce but for everything all the way down to the life insurance policies of each merchant sailor.

But what if an allied government wanted to pretend that neutral ship was sailing on it's own the entire time just to vilify the Germans?

No one would bother to forge those documents retroactively just to make the Germans look bad when the world at large was already allied against them. The amount of effort required to retroactively falsify shipping documents on both the shipper and consignee side would far outweigh the benefit. All just to squeeze a few tiny droplets of extra gasoline onto an already blazing fire of anti-German propaganda going strong at the time.

Solution?

The game already has code built in for smugglers, i.e. neutral ships sailing under a false flag. The player can board these neutral ships and inspect them for contraband but this process is not required. The dev diary videos for the B129 patch even explain that the player can sink the neutral even if the inspection didn't yield any results if the player is confident enough. The debriefing will either vindicate or vilify the player's intuition.

So I suggest applying this 'smuggler' tag to every single ship sailing in an armed convoy. That way even if they do get separated from the herd, the player retains the autonomy to inspect them or put a torpedo in their belly.

Players who were paying attention may recognize the name of the ship right away and can flex some (player knowledge). Or they may choose to inspect the ship if they aren't certain or because that player draws a line between what they observe with the ego camera and what their officers can observe (character knowledge).

Random thought here. First of all. You spoke brilliantly my friend. Secondly you spoke of life insurance for merchant mariners. Considering that the black pit was well known and well publicized during this time in the U.S, I'm wondering what how eager insurance companies were to give out these policies due to the astronomical chances that they wouldn't make it back. When you think of the fact that insurance companies will deny or ramp up costs just due to someone smoking these days. The thought of these guys being insured is kinda comical.

[wolf310ii]

Originally posted by McDewgle:

Yes, absolutely. Just because they left the convoy doesn't mean they are no longer carrying supplies to aid the British and shipping documents registered at the point of origin and destination would confirm this.


But what if an allied government wanted to pretend that neutral ship was sailing on it's own the entire time just to vilify the Germans?

It wasnt that easy.
Most ships of a convoy didnt had the same origin nor the same destination.
Halifax and Liverpool was only the start and endpoint of the convoys, not the start and endpoint of the ships. Neutral ships in a convoy dont even had to have England as destination, they could leave the convoy befor reaching the irish sea and proceed to Sweden or Spain.

The Brits did "force" neutrals to join the convoys, to vilify the Germans and to drag the neutral countrys in the war, that got even worse after the US joined the war, they sanctioned everyone and his dog for staying neutral.
Even a few weeks befor the end of the war, the US still forced countrys to declare war on Germany

The shipping documents doesnt matter, only was is written in the news papers.
Look at the Lusitania Incident, today we know she had munition on board and was a legitim target, but that changes nothing on the events happend.
Or the Irak war, weapons of mass destruction, irak soldiers who drag babys out of incubators and smash them against the walls, ect., today we all know that were all lies, but that made the war not undone.

The blockade zone had corridors for neutral shipping, with different rules of engagement for the u-boats. They were only allowed to attack ships if there was no doubt that they are enemys.

[Filthy_Casual64]

I have a lone Argentine Tanker that doesn't give me the option to board and inspect. That's right after letting a very suspicious Norwegian freighter go, after being the first ship to 'pass' inspection. It is off the coast of Ireland and heading east though claims it is heading to Spain, and my Merchant character seemed to buy the Captain's story.