Can you change the course of the war?

[Tsar & Soviet]

Just curious if you can make it possible for Germany to win WW2 or are they doomed to lose? Is there any ending at all or does the game just keep going?

[exit.strategy]

nope. and that's good. you have to survive the war, that's main goal. and anyway it's historically impossible even with XXI type. Battle for Attlantic was important for Allies, but not so critically important.

[untugendbold]

If surviving was the main goal, I could float in harbor listening to music with time acceleration on. The main goal is to do missions as best as you can. What I miss in many games (e.g. also IL2 BOS) is the impact that my mission performance has on the theatre of war. A true dynamic campaign, where enemies are more than randomly generated replacements.

[Tsar & Soviet]

Originally posted by exit.strategy:

it's historically impossible even with XXI type. Battle for Attlantic was important for Allies, but not so critically important.

It's a game I don't care whats the point of playing if I know what I do has no outcome? That no matter what I do victory is impossible. Honestly, if they don't make it possible for a German victory the game is just ♥♥♥♥ in my opinion

[wolf310ii]

Originally posted by exit.strategy:

Battle for Attlantic was important for Allies, but not so critically important.

For UK the battle of atlantic WAS critically important, Britain is an island, they had to import nearly everything.

[Maddin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HX_convoys

Originally posted by wiki:

A total of 377 convoys ran in the campaign, conveying a total of about 20,000 ships. 38 convoys were attacked (about 10%), resulting in losses of 110 ships in convoy; a further 60 lost straggling, and 36 while detached or after dispersal, with losses from marine accident and other causes, for a total loss of 206 ships, or about 1% of the total.

So i don't think you could do it any better in the game. Germany had the same problem in WW I. There were just too many enemy ships to sink.

[stellaferox]

Well, there are WWII strategy games in which you can win playing Germany. In this case it would be nice to have the Allies send more convoys to make up for a successful career on a sub

[wolf310ii]

After Convoy ON 154, winter weather provided a brief respite from the fighting in January before convoys SC 118 and ON 166 in February 1943, but in the spring, convoy battles started up again with the same ferocity. There were so many U-boats on patrol in the North Atlantic, it was difficult for convoys to evade detection, resulting in a succession of vicious battles.

On March 10, 1943, the Germans added a refinement to the U-boat Enigma key, which blinded the Allied codebreakers at Bletchley Park for 9 days.[61] That month saw the battles of convoys UGS 6, HX 228, SC 121, SC 122 and HX 229. One hundred and twenty ships were sunk worldwide, 82 ships of 476,000 tons in the Atlantic, while 12 U-boats were destroyed.

The supply situation in Britain was such there was talk of being unable to continue the war, with supplies of fuel being particularly low. The situation was so bad that the British considered abandoning convoys entirely.[62] The next two months saw a complete reversal of fortunes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic

[exit.strategy]

Originally posted by wolf310ii:

Originally posted by exit.strategy:

Battle for Attlantic was important for Allies, but not so critically important.

For UK the battle of atlantic WAS critically important, Britain is an island, they had to import nearly everything.

Yes. For UK, with all respect it was critical. But globally it just slowdown overall victory of Allies. may be for year of two. There are so many possibilities to win war for Allies and just few chances for Axis... Even with XXI types submarines Germany could not win the war on two fronts. IMO.

[dangerfloof]

You, in a lone uboat WIN the war?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[Swoop]

What they said. One sub isn't going to make a difference. This isn't the modern world where a single smart bomb can change history, this is the 1940s.

Besides anything else, even if the Kreigsmarine had the strength and numbers to combat the Royal Navy in it's own backyard, even if the British had lost the Battle of Britain (er...if a sub could somehow effect the air war), even if Germany had invaded and subdued the British......America would just have nuked em.

[katho]

This game is about commanding and managing a single submarine. RP it as far as you are committed to, but if you want to change the outcome of WW2 gamewise, I think you should play Hearts of Iron.

[Hidden Gunman]

Originally posted by wolf310ii:

After Convoy ON 154, winter weather provided a brief respite from the fighting in January before convoys SC 118 and ON 166 in February 1943, but in the spring, convoy battles started up again with the same ferocity. There were so many U-boats on patrol in the North Atlantic, it was difficult for convoys to evade detection, resulting in a succession of vicious battles.

On March 10, 1943, the Germans added a refinement to the U-boat Enigma key, which blinded the Allied codebreakers at Bletchley Park for 9 days.[61] That month saw the battles of convoys UGS 6, HX 228, SC 121, SC 122 and HX 229. One hundred and twenty ships were sunk worldwide, 82 ships of 476,000 tons in the Atlantic, while 12 U-boats were destroyed.

The supply situation in Britain was such there was talk of being unable to continue the war, with supplies of fuel being particularly low. The situation was so bad that the British considered abandoning convoys entirely.[62] The next two months saw a complete reversal of fortunes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic

Towards the end of the SC122/HX229/HX229A battle, the air gap in mid atlantic was closed, when a liberator landed at and operated from Iceland. After that, the days of wolfpacks and long running convoy battles were essentially over.

Even single boats struggled to establish and maintain contact, let alone being able to get into optimum attack positions, once convoys had complete daylight aircover, which can and did extend into the dark hours with radar.

[untugendbold]

Originally posted by Swoop:

...America would just have nuked em.

I just read this Wiki and realised that it could have been the other way around, if things had gone just a little different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_program#Comparison_of_the_Manhattan_Project_and_the_Uranverein

According to Williams, "Leading German physicists were clear that, above all, it was the lack of uranium ore that had impeded German efforts to build a bomb."

And i think it is incorrect to assume in war there is only winning or total defeat. There could have been a lot of other outcomes and negotiations if Nazi Germany had a lever like Britain as hostage. Who knows when the war would have ended or a truce be negotiated?

I agree that a single U-Boat would not have made a difference. But who cares? If i play Hearts of Iron I like the alternate scenario it offers. And each and every game could benefit from a dynamic campaign. The only downside to it is that it is more difficult to program.

[Hidden Gunman]

Britain as a hostage lever?

Seriously?

Face the facts that the only reason Germany lasted as long as it did was because it stripped every occupied country and region of its wealth, both financial, foodsuffs, and resources.

The Germans weren't rational in their administration or war fighting, or strategy, and any idea that Britain would be a bargaining chip is absolutely laughable. The reality is that the Germans denied themselves at least a full army strength of manpower simply by persecuting their own Jews; second, it was the Germans who declared war on the USA, not the other way around; third, the Soviets didn't care one bit about human rights or bargaining chips, and after 1942 were doing very nicely at beating the Germans by their own efforts...no matter if there had been no threat of a second front, the Germans simply didn't have enough troops for internal security of the occupied territories, and fighting off the soviets.

I will point out that the 'lack of uranium' argument by the Germans is bs. When the Soviets overran the German nuclear research facility in southern Berlin (Dahlem?), they scored seven tonnes of unprocessed uranium, and near a kilo of processed uranium, all of which they used to produce their first A-bombs later on.

In fairness, though, any post-war German source should be treated with caution. None of them could lie straight in bed, and had a marked tendency to find excuses or to deflect blame, and to confuse fact and fiction.

[CloudPiercer]

Originally posted by Swoop:

What they said. One sub isn't going to make a difference. This isn't the modern world where a single smart bomb can change history, this is the 1940s.

Besides anything else, even if the Kreigsmarine had the strength and numbers to combat the Royal Navy in it's own backyard, even if the British had lost the Battle of Britain (er...if a sub could somehow effect the air war), even if Germany had invaded and subdued the British......America would just have nuked em.

Yep and America was getting ready for nuking Germany, right after Japan. They weren't gonna hesitate.