Bit frustrated with game design.

[Poita]

Even though I'm not a massive lore fan or even game rule expert. I am a fan with a long history of the Space Hulk games. I bought the Space Hulk: Tactics as I did deathwing and the 2014 Space Hulk before it (and the Amiga & PC game from 1994).
What I don't like about this game so far is:

1. The Genestealers can appear out of any point in the halls so whats the point of having marked Genestealer spawn points? It make course plotting impossible from a strategic point of view.

2. When a Genestealer is shot at they seem to dodge the shot at least 50% of the time and get in close where they win hand to hand attacks most of the time in a recent game my heavy machine gunner fired point blank at the same genestealer three times and failed to kill it then it killed three of my space marines in a row in the same move.

3. I hate the portals. I want to see the layout of a map and work out a strategy but with portals everything gets so convoluted.

4. The swapper tiles are stupid. They are the kind of thing (along with portals) that hard core players think up when they get bored with the basic gameplay. So that minority have us casual players with convoluted and silly features.

5. Not sure why the fire tiles exist. Genestealers seem to be able to traverse them most of the time wher marines get roasted.

6. Going through the first campaign I don't care about the story and just want to do the maps, I take every fight and so far I've been given the same two missions on the exact same maps (protect a sace or retrieve a skull) about four times each.

7. The game seems way too random/OP with the Genestealers tearing through the Space marine squads too easily. I don't mind if they have an advantage up close as that is their design but they either endure being shot or dodge too often. What's the point of having a badass space marine with badass weapons if they are so ineffectual? I could understand a few getting through if there was a swarm but there are only a handful of genestealers on each map and some always get through and when they do they rip through everyone.

So I love the game and the design and look of it but feel quite frustrated. More so than I did with the Space Hulk of a few year ago and I'm tempted to just go back to that.

[Hermann|♠|]

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

1. No just no. Genestealer Blips can get revealed everywhere but can only spawn at Spawnpoints.

2. Welcome to the world of dice.

3 -4. Noone is forcing you to like portals or Warp bubbles on Eldar ships. Believe me i don't but to go as far and blame other gamers for your dislike is pretty dumb.

5. Genestealer seem to be able to traverse them because they might not have to stop on them. The Shredder tiles only activate once the enemy turn starts and someone is standing on them. Both Space Marines and Genestealers.

6.Oh look lets ignore the content and then yell there is no content. Additionally lets mistake Horde maps with actual Missions. (granted the Horde maps repeat alot but they are working on that so be patient)

7. Mind your placement, mind your resources, start counting tiles, learn the game. Space Marines in Space Hulk are the lower end of the food chain. Have been for 29 years and will continue to be. Deal with it. ITS THE RULES!

And how were the other Space Hulk games any different in the core rules ? I played them all.

[Mojo Jojo]

When you get to that red mission at the end the repeating side missions will change to different ones. The devs are fixing this. Yea the Terminators are blind as bats. Missing x4 shots, wasting 4 shots with an assault cannon point blank lol. Its not something going to go well with infinite spawing GS and having seriously limited ammo, is quite demanding.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Poita:

So I love the game and the design and look of it but feel quite frustrated. More so than I did with the Space Hulk of a few year ago and I'm tempted to just go back to that.

Hermann has covered every single one of your points fairly well, so I will tell this much:

For somebody who claims to be "a fan with a long history of the Space Hulk games" you seem to have a lot of issues with the Space Hulk itself, because most of what you complain about is the very core of Space Hulk (the boardgame).

[Poita]

Firstly, is it usual for SP hard core types to be insta-♥♥♥♥♥ in their answer tone? Welcome to the internet I guess. Would be nice to get mature tone to match the helpful nature of the reply.

Next, er no on 1. I 'litterally' see Genestealiers open hatches and pop out of random points in the halls. One even came out right by the spawn area.

Ok I've played Risk so I know dice can have crazy bad luck runs but I'm replying 2014 Space Hulk and there is a far higher hit sucess ratio. And in any case, although the game is based on the board game there is no reason it has to be based on dice which were need for a board game. The idea that a dedicated Spartan style Terminator with super high tech armour and equipment can't hit a bleedin Genestealer in a right hallway with a machine gun with four long bursts is sily dice or no dice.

My thesis on why the portals and swapper tiles are stupid is perfectly sound. When people get bored of games they love they do tend to bend over backwards to shoe horn silly stuff in to keep it fresh. It's a perfectly reasonable view that that majority of people playing SH are not hard core types but are dealing with daft stuff that the minority introduced into the game.

Two things can be true at the same time. Some content such as portals and swapper tiles can be stupid and it can be annoying to get small missions repeated multiple times in a row in the first ten maps. Especially on a game I just paid £30 for.

As I said, the 2013 SH game had a far more reasonable hit/miss rate.

@holy-death. I said I was a fan of the game, not an expert on it or the lore. And each production is not identical. This one seems to have a bit of sillyness in it.

[👽🐬 Old Black Nerd🐬👽]

Originally posted by Hermann Ze German|♠|:

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

1. No just no. Genestealer Blips can get revealed everywhere but can only spawn at Spawnpoints.

2. Welcome to the world of dice.

3 -4. Noone is forcing you to like portals or Warp bubbles on Eldar ships. Believe me i don't but to go as far and blame other gamers for your dislike is pretty dumb.

5. Genestealer seem to be able to traverse them because they might not have to stop on them. The Shredder tiles only activate once the enemy turn starts and someone is standing on them. Both Space Marines and Genestealers.

6.Oh look lets ignore the content and then yell there is no content. Additionally lets mistake Horde maps with actual Missions. (granted the Horde maps repeat alot but they are working on that so be patient)

7. Mind your placement, mind your resources, start counting tiles, learn the game. Space Marines in Space Hulk are the lower end of the food chain. Have been for 29 years and will continue to be. Deal with it. ITS THE RULES!

And how were the other Space Hulk games any different in the core rules ? I played them all.

I just read the first sentence of your post and immediately clicked reply to tell you how bad, fedora wearing and neckbeardy that was. I haven't even gotten past it yet. Yikes.jpg

[👽🐬 Old Black Nerd🐬👽]

i was right, the rest of it was bad, probably the worst in my 36 (THIRTY-SIX, WHICH MEANS I HAVE MORE AUTHORITY OVER YOU BECAUSE I LISTED MY AGE AND THE NUMBER IS HIGHER THAN YOURS) years of living

[👽🐬 Old Black Nerd🐬👽]

Originally posted by Poita:

Firstly, is it usual for SP hard core types to be insta-♥♥♥♥♥ in their answer tone? Welcome to the internet I guess. Would be nice to get mature tone to match the helpful nature of the reply.

die-hard warhammer fans consists of one of the worst fanbases in the world. It's like "I can post this on the internet because I won't be punched in the face for being a jerk: The Internet times 4 to the 4th power." type of bad.

It's better to wait for the devs to fix things, or when they re-release it as the DELUXE EMPEROR EDITION

[Hermann|♠|]

Originally posted by 👽🐬 Old Black Nerd🐬👽:

i was right, the rest of it was bad, probably the worst in my 36 (THIRTY-SIX, WHICH MEANS I HAVE MORE AUTHORITY OVER YOU BECAUSE I LISTED MY AGE AND THE NUMBER IS HIGHER THAN YOURS) years of living

The 29 year is a reference to the original Space Hulk Boardgame beeing from 1989. If you knew anything about this Game you might have gotten that.

Originally posted by 👽🐬 Old Black Nerd🐬👽:

Originally posted by Poita:

Firstly, is it usual for SP hard core types to be insta-♥♥♥♥♥ in their answer tone? Welcome to the internet I guess. Would be nice to get mature tone to match the helpful nature of the reply.

die-hard warhammer fans consists of one of the worst fanbases in the world. It's like "I can post this on the internet because I won't be punched in the face for being a jerk: The Internet times 4 to the 4th power." type of bad.

It's better to wait for the devs to fix things, or when they re-release it as the DELUXE EMPEROR EDITION

Warhammer & Warhammer 40k have a very dedicated fanbase. And you know what thats probably because the IPs are good. And these IPs are good because stuff does not get changed on a whim by someone crying on a forum as to what needs changing because it just does not float their personal boat.

Go to a "Lord of the Rings" forum and go tell them to make Sauron the good guy or somthing. Lets see how much they will like that.

[Hermann|♠|]

Originally posted by Poita:

Firstly, is it usual for SP hard core types to be insta-♥♥♥♥♥ in their answer tone? Welcome to the internet I guess. Would be nice to get mature tone to match the helpful nature of the reply.

Next, er no on 1. I 'litterally' see Genestealiers open hatches and pop out of random points in the halls. One even came out right by the spawn area.

Ok I've played Risk so I know dice can have crazy bad luck runs but I'm replying 2014 Space Hulk and there is a far higher hit sucess ratio. And in any case, although the game is based on the board game there is no reason it has to be based on dice which were need for a board game. The idea that a dedicated Spartan style Terminator with super high tech armour and equipment can't hit a bleedin Genestealer in a right hallway with a machine gun with four long bursts is sily dice or no dice.

My thesis on why the portals and swapper tiles are stupid is perfectly sound. When people get bored of games they love they do tend to bend over backwards to shoe horn silly stuff in to keep it fresh. It's a perfectly reasonable view that that majority of people playing SH are not hard core types but are dealing with daft stuff that the minority introduced into the game.

Two things can be true at the same time. Some content such as portals and swapper tiles can be stupid and it can be annoying to get small missions repeated multiple times in a row in the first ten maps. Especially on a game I just paid £30 for.

As I said, the 2013 SH game had a far more reasonable hit/miss rate.

@holy-death. I said I was a fan of the game, not an expert on it or the lore. And each production is not identical. This one seems to have a bit of sillyness in it.

1. Genestealer Blips are the only source of GS entering the map. What you are refering to is the reveal animation and that is a integral part of the game.

2. This is a videogame adaptation of a Boardgame played between two players. One plays as the Space Marine one as the Genestealer. If you fix the rolls you will make it unfair for one side. And since this game has been a game with MP integrated from the start what you are asking is amounting to an i win button.

3. What do you want me to tell you ? Its there deal with it they are not gonna take it out because you cannot or don't want to learn how to play with them.

4. The 2013 Full Control Space Hulk had the same Dice System minus the cards that you can use to buff yourself so if anything it was more unforgiving.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Poita:

I said I was a fan of the game, not an expert on it or the lore. And each production is not identical. This one seems to have a bit of sillyness in it.

You say "sillyness", but Tactics is much more faithful to the original Space Hulk (the boardgame) than Ascension.

That's why I said you seem to have an issue with the Space Hulk when you question the design of things like the amount of Genestealers per Blip or when and where they are spotted or revealed (all of which are a thing in the actual Space Hulk the game is based upon!).

Tactics has its own twist on the gameplay, but if I recall correctly that's mostly limited to the card system, and I think this is what actually makes Tactics more interesting than Space Hulk (the video game from 2013, which is probably as close to the boardgame as possible).

Originally posted by Poita:

Next, er no on 1. I 'litterally' see Genestealiers open hatches and pop out of random points in the halls. One even came out right by the spawn area.

Genestealers are "hidden" in the Blips. Blips can have between 0 and 3 Genestealers when spotted or revealed (it's an important difference). Not sure why this is a problem?

Originally posted by Poita:

Ok I've played Risk so I know dice can have crazy bad luck runs but I'm replying 2014 Space Hulk and there is a far higher hit sucess ratio.

It could have been, provided you leveled up your Terminators (on early levels it's still very dice-y). Which means you had better hit-to-success ratio because... you had. And that's a huge difference between Ascension and Tactics (or even Space Hulk itself).

In Tactics all you have is the dice and it can only be modified with cards. Which means that the basic Terminators with the Storm Bolters will have only 30/50% hit-to-chance (I am rounding the numbers up and down). This isn't much. In fact, it's pretty bad and gets even worse the less space you have between yourself and the Genestealers. And that's why you have cards as well as weapons such as Heavy Flamer or Assault Cannon: they are much more reliable, although they suffer from the drawback of having limited ammunition.

Originally posted by Poita:

And in any case, although the game is based on the board game there is no reason it has to be based on dice which were need for a board game.

You would have to come up with a different system and you would need to convince Games Workshop to agree to diverge from their Space Hulk rules. Even Ascension - which did stray from the path - still uses the dice to determine the outcomes.

In fact, if I recall correctly, all of the non-FPS, non-action and non-RTS Games Workshop games tend to utilize the RNG. Either because their table-top/board game titles use it (Mordheim, Blood Bowl, etc.) or because it provides the unpredictability and lethality to their system that keeps things interesting.

Whatever the original reason, at this point it's a very well established canon, so criticising it is strange. Even more so when we are talking about the game that doesn't hide it has direct ties to Space Hulk (by having "Space Hulk" in its title).

Originally posted by Poita:

The idea that a dedicated Spartan style Terminator with super high tech armour and equipment can't hit a bleedin Genestealer in a right hallway with a machine gun with four long bursts is sily dice or no dice.

Genestealers have superior reflexes, so they can dodge pretty well.

It's also the reason why an average Terminator (with a Power Fist) is much weaker in melee, which gives Genestealers an edge in hand-to-claw combat (and the Terminator armor doesn't stand a chance against the Rending Claws).

So I have to disagree with you here: it's down pretty much to dice. And dice is random, which means nobody knows what will happen, because when it comes to probabilities even the unexpected can happen. That's part of what keeps each scenario interesting, although it can be frustrating sometimes.

[Poita]

@holy-death. Ok some helpful answers there. Thanks.

[rick dolla]

Originally posted by Hermann Ze German|♠|:

5. Genestealer seem to be able to traverse them because they might not have to stop on them. The Shredder tiles only activate once the enemy turn starts and someone is standing on them. Both Space Marines and Genestealers.
/...)

The shredder is a great map design option!

Is it an auto-kill end of turn or an attack?

[Ashmodath]

to my knowledge it's auto-kill, so don't step on them.

[Focus_Arc]

Hi,

Originally posted by rick dolla:

Originally posted by Hermann Ze German|♠|:

5. Genestealer seem to be able to traverse them because they might not have to stop on them. The Shredder tiles only activate once the enemy turn starts and someone is standing on them. Both Space Marines and Genestealers.
/...)

The shredder is a great map design option!

Is it an auto-kill end of turn or an attack?

Shredders are armed when an unit walk on them, and then after one full turn they activate and kill anything still on the square. (One full turn mean that if a terminator walk on it, it will activate on the next terminator turn, not during the genestealer turn).

You can see when a shredder is armed because it have flames going out of it's corners.

[ASCII]

I have screenshots of a Blood Angels Sergeant beating around 30 Genestealers to death before winning the game alone. I killed his entire squad, but was unable to actually kill the sergeant (armed with thunder hammer).

My point is, a lot of your problems involve chance. In a game of chance, anything is possible. A Tyranid can dodge a crap load of heavy weapons fire, just as much as a Sergeant can theoretically survive 8 turns of 30 nids beating on him if he's lucky enough.