Was Vex someones OC?

[UnlivingEnd]

No one in the thieves guild can stop ♥♥♥♥ riding her to death

[Rez Elwin]

Publicado originalmente por Alex:

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

Interesting headcanon. But Bethesda games go out of the way to keep anything the protagonist does as ambiguous.

No, bethesda simply never mentions anything from the previous games' guild questlines. maybe they'll do it differently for TESVI, but I highly doubt that.

This game actually does. Lucien Lachance, the spectral assassin mentions some events from Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood, and how you remind him of another Listener, a protege of his. It's not necessarily the player, but those events did happen.

[Alex]

Those are merely tiny scaps. About three dozen lines in total? How many reference the previous events? Four?

I'm not saying that the next game will unmake whatever happened in the previous one (although there's an ungodly amount ot retconning). My point is that Bethesda will avoid mentioning as much of the previous events as possible, because they don't have the writing capacity to incorporate multiple choices into a single canon. They'd rather nuke the previous setting (as they did with Morrowind).

[UnlivingEnd]

Publicado originalmente por Alex:

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

Uh yeah. That’s what I said.

You said "ambigious". I say that they simply leave it out.

The first would require a certain level of writing, which bethesda doesn't seem to bother with anymore. So, they do the latter.

Not entirely true. There are mentions of the dark brotherhood questline of oblivion. The mages guild is touched on slightly too.

[Alex]

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

There are mentions of the dark brotherhood questline of oblivion.

A few incomplete references, yes. Which avoid mentioning anything substantial.

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

The mages guild is touched on slightly too.

They say that the Mages guild got dissolved. How? Why? By whom? Anything of importance gets avoided.

It's even worse with Morrowind and the Dragonborn DLC. The protagonist, the Nerevarine, gets mentioned like 3 times, without any specifics. Despite the fact that at least one NPC must've met the Nerevarine directly.

That's what I'm saying. Bethesda doesn't have the writing capacity to incorporate multiple choices into a single canon. So what do they do? They avoid mentioning it as much as possible. At best, we get a few vague references, a couple of cameos, and maybe half a dozen easter eggs.

I would love if they made a canon system where a specific person would've been credited with certain achievements. For example, with Vex being the canon Thieves Guild master, or for the Last Dragonborn to be a Nord. Or at least to be perceived as a Nord, either through history manipulation, or because of their awakened Dragon Blood.

[UnlivingEnd]

Publicado originalmente por Alex:

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

There are mentions of the dark brotherhood questline of oblivion.

A few incomplete references, yes. Which avoid mentioning anything substantial.

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

The mages guild is touched on slightly too.

They say that the Mages guild got dissolved. How? Why? By whom? Anything of importance gets avoided.

It's even worse with Morrowind and the Dragonborn DLC. The protagonist, the Nerevarine, gets mentioned like 3 times, without any specifics. Despite the fact that at least one NPC must've met the Nerevarine directly.

That's what I'm saying. Bethesda doesn't have the writing capacity to incorporate multiple choices into a single canon. So what do they do? They avoid mentioning it as much as possible. At best, we get a few vague references, a couple of cameos, and maybe half a dozen easter eggs.

I would love if they made a canon system where a specific person would've been credited with certain achievements. For example, with Vex being the canon Thieves Guild master, or for the Last Dragonborn to be a Nord. Or at least to be perceived as a Nord, either through history manipulation, or because of their awakened Dragon Blood.

They actually do explain why the mages guild closed. People blamed magic users for the oblivion crisis and became suspicious of all of them. As for the references being vague. Yeah that’s what I was talking about. Because Bethesda wants to leave the details of the protagonist up in the air they leave room for every guild quest to have been played by th player. Bethesda has never once canonized any npc doing the guild quests instead of the PC.

[Alex]

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

They actually do explain why the mages guild closed. People blamed magic users for the oblivion crisis and became suspicious of all of them. As for the references being vague. Yeah that’s what I was talking about. Because Bethesda wants to leave the details of the protagonist up in the air they leave room for every guild quest to have been played by th player. Bethesda has never once canonized any npc doing the guild quests instead of the PC.

They should be bolder though, and at least canonize the previous protagonist in some way. Change it a bit of course. Suggest that the "canonized" version is the product of propaganda, magic, or even a "dragon break". Create a few conflicting versions of the events. Make the versions a matter of politics. Add a conspiracy theory or two. Basically, breath some life into the lore.

But flat out avoiding references hurts immersion worse then any canon.

[UnlivingEnd]

Publicado originalmente por Alex:

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

They actually do explain why the mages guild closed. People blamed magic users for the oblivion crisis and became suspicious of all of them. As for the references being vague. Yeah that’s what I was talking about. Because Bethesda wants to leave the details of the protagonist up in the air they leave room for every guild quest to have been played by th player. Bethesda has never once canonized any npc doing the guild quests instead of the PC.

They should be bolder though, and at least canonize the previous protagonist in some way. Change it a bit of course. Suggest that the "canonized" version is the product of propaganda, magic, or even a "dragon break". Create a few conflicting versions of the events. Make the versions a matter of politics. Add a conspiracy theory or two. Basically, breath some life into the lore.

But flat out avoiding references hurts immersion worse then any canon.

Agreed. What makes it even more ridiculous is that the span between Morrowind and Oblivion is only 6 years. Yet somehow, despite becoming one of the most famous figures in Morrowinds history, nobody can remember a single solitary thing about them. Not even their race or gender.

[Alex]

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

Agreed. What makes it even more ridiculous is that the span between Morrowind and Oblivion is only 6 years. Yet somehow, despite becoming one of the most famous figures in Morrowinds history, nobody can remember a single solitary thing about them. Not even their race or gender.

That's because they "went to Akavir". Afterwards, the whole province was nuked. The end.

Not being able to remember the protagonist may have worked in the case of the "Hero of Kvatch". But on the other hand, this "clean slate" provided the perfect staging ground to create all kinds of versions. Bethesda, however, simply forgot about that protagonist altogether. I don't think they're even mentioned anywhere, except for a single, rather vague reference from ol' Sheo.

[UnlivingEnd]

Publicado originalmente por Alex:

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

Agreed. What makes it even more ridiculous is that the span between Morrowind and Oblivion is only 6 years. Yet somehow, despite becoming one of the most famous figures in Morrowinds history, nobody can remember a single solitary thing about them. Not even their race or gender.

That's because they "went to Akavir". Afterwards, the whole province was nuked. The end.

Not being able to remember the protagonist may have worked in the case of the "Hero of Kvatch". But on the other hand, this "clean slate" provided the perfect staging ground to create all kinds of versions. Bethesda, however, simply forgot about that protagonist altogether. I don't think they're even mentioned anywhere, except for a single, rather vague reference from ol' Sheo.

The Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath. According to Bethesda devs.

[Alex]

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

The Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath. According to Bethesda devs.

That's what I meant. But their exploits, especially their role in ending the Oblivion Crisis are competely forgotten. I expected them to be some kind of folk hero by now, with various regions claiming that the Hero was most certainly "theirs".

[psychotron666]

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

Publicado originalmente por Alex:

A few incomplete references, yes. Which avoid mentioning anything substantial.
They say that the Mages guild got dissolved. How? Why? By whom? Anything of importance gets avoided.

It's even worse with Morrowind and the Dragonborn DLC. The protagonist, the Nerevarine, gets mentioned like 3 times, without any specifics. Despite the fact that at least one NPC must've met the Nerevarine directly.

That's what I'm saying. Bethesda doesn't have the writing capacity to incorporate multiple choices into a single canon. So what do they do? They avoid mentioning it as much as possible. At best, we get a few vague references, a couple of cameos, and maybe half a dozen easter eggs.

I would love if they made a canon system where a specific person would've been credited with certain achievements. For example, with Vex being the canon Thieves Guild master, or for the Last Dragonborn to be a Nord. Or at least to be perceived as a Nord, either through history manipulation, or because of their awakened Dragon Blood.

They actually do explain why the mages guild closed. People blamed magic users for the oblivion crisis and became suspicious of all of them. As for the references being vague. Yeah that’s what I was talking about. Because Bethesda wants to leave the details of the protagonist up in the air they leave room for every guild quest to have been played by th player. Bethesda has never once canonized any npc doing the guild quests instead of the PC.

The devs wrote the final report to trebonius to explain the disappearance of the dwarves. That report is written by someone who isn't the nerevarine, so somebody else who's doing the mages guild quest given by guild Master trebonius.

Furthermore, neloth is alive in Skyrim. One of the branches of the mages guild quest is to kill neloth for trebonius, so we know that wasn't done. Neloth also calls the nerevarine a he, because he directly met the nerevarine.

And every PC name, race and gender is forgotten. That itself strengthens the fact that they themselves never did the guild quests. If you had a character that was the leader of every guild AND saved the province from cosmic threat, there's no reason they'd be forgotten. Nobody else in history has a resume that big. The guilds all have extensive records and they wouldn't be forgotten to time like that if they were guild masters.

At least as just the main quest completer, you can say they came in, saved ♥♥♥♥, then disappeared and that's why most don't remember them.

[psychotron666]

Publicado originalmente por UnlivingEnd:

Publicado originalmente por Alex:

That's because they "went to Akavir". Afterwards, the whole province was nuked. The end.

Not being able to remember the protagonist may have worked in the case of the "Hero of Kvatch". But on the other hand, this "clean slate" provided the perfect staging ground to create all kinds of versions. Bethesda, however, simply forgot about that protagonist altogether. I don't think they're even mentioned anywhere, except for a single, rather vague reference from ol' Sheo.

The Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath. According to Bethesda devs.

More like that sheogorath became or took over the hero of kvatch.
Daedra cannot be killed, and sheogorath in Skyrim has memories of cursing Pelagius which was hundreds of years before oblivion.

So this is the same sheogorath from back then. There's essentially two theories of what happened to the hero of kvatch, neither are confirmed though.
One is they became a vessel for sheogorath, as is stated in oblivion and over the years became sheogorath (as in sheogorath's mind took over the hero of kvatch). The hero is no longer there, they are sheogorath now. There's a possibility that the hero of kvatch is now an aspect of sheogorath like barbas is for clavicus vile, that they can be summoned by sheogorath if he wants.

The other theory is that the events of shivering isles never happens.
As the beginning of the dlc, we're told everyone who walks in comes out crazy. The hero walks in while a guard watches, and later comes out claiming to the guard he defeated the grey March and is now sheogorath. There's no lore explanation why the hero doesn't go crazy like everyone else who steps in there. And 200 years later there's not a trace of jygalag.

There's a chance that none of that happened and it was all in your head to make you think you're sheogorath.

[Alex]

Plot twist, the Mad God is actually Haskill, while the "Sheo" sitting on the throne is simply a clown. Haskill got tired of the old one, so he swapped them for the "Hero".