Bosmer and Green Pact thoughts

[Rabblevox]

So I'm about to do YAR (Yet Another Run). And I'm gonna do two things for the first time in 600+ hours.

1: Play pure vanilla. Haven't played unmodded since shortly after I switched from playing on 360 to PC. Vanilla scares me, it's no longer MY PERSONAL GAME. I'll be playing what the plebians play, Y'ffre help me.

2: Wood Elf. Never played one. I've known for a dozen years that stealth archer is supposed to be the king of this game, but not my usual playstyle. I kinda like "in your face" play, but trying a change-up.

Now, I'm an RP'er, not a min/maxer. So I try to pay attention to lore, and justify my reactions to it. Bosmer present a problem. Bonus in Alchemy, but forbidden to consume, wear, or construct with plant material. You see the problem? How do you Alchemy without plants?

I'm choosing to take a "progressive" stance, and say the pact is interpreted incorrectly. My heretical interpretation is...

Thou shalt not kill any plant, except if killing the plant would directly save others. Harvesting is allowed, gathering is allowed. crafting of dead plants is allowed. It is part of the cycle.
Thou shalt never construct a house of wood, nor reside in one longer than a calendar month.
Thou shalt never plant for consumption. Planting for medicines is allowed.

(I think that covers it)

In the spirit of religious schisms everywhere, I'll call this the New American Revised Pact (NARP).

I'm trying to set my self some RP restrictions without making the game unplayable.

Fellow Bosmer, give me your thoughts! This could be our 95 Theses moment!!!
Or not.

[[RvB] RedArmyGrif]

Alchemy is doable (though annoying) without plants. Instead of harvesting being allowed I'd have it so you can buy plant ingredients from shops instead. Non-Bosmer don't need to obey the Pact so it should be okay.

[Rabblevox]

Originally posted by RvB RedArmyGrif:

Alchemy is doable (though annoying) without plants. Instead of harvesting being allowed I'd have it so you can buy plant ingredients from shops instead. Non-Bosmer don't need to obey the Pact so it should be okay.

I can see that. But as a gardener, I also know that plucking, pruning, and harvesting are GOOD for the green.

And maybe that's my purpose. A Pointy-eared Martin Luther Burbank! The New Green Pact!
(or maybe I'm just stoned)

[alexander_dougherty]

That is not an interpretation of the Green Pact, it is an attempt to rewrite the bits you don't like. The Green Pact makes no distinction between using plants for food and using plants for medicine, none what so ever. Harvesting is SPECIFICALLY forbidden under the Green Pact, you just can't do it without breaking the Pact.

Using fallen bits of wood has long been allowed, and it's even been argued that fallen fruit is ok to eat, THIS is an interpretation of the Green Pact, one that is already in the lore.
So a Wooden house is ok, provided it's all deadfall and none of it is Harvested. And you can gather too.... The problem would be the hardliners who don't agree and will probably try to stop you.

[Rabblevox]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

That is not an interpretation of the Green Pact, it is an attempt to rewrite the bits you don't like. The Green Pact makes no distinction between using plants for food and using plants for medicine, none what so ever. Harvesting is SPECIFICALLY forbidden under the Green Pact, you just can't do it without breaking the Pact.

Using fallen bits of wood has long been allowed, and it's even been argued that fallen fruit is ok to eat, THIS is an interpretation of the Green Pact, one that is already in the lore.
So a Wooden house is ok, provided it's all deadfall and none of it is Harvested. And you can gather too.... The problem would be the hardliners who don't agree and will probably try to stop you.

Well, I did say it was a "heretical" interpretation. :) But this makes my RP clearer. I am a religious heretic running for my life.
(and once again RL and RP collide)

[xybolt]

if you purchase your alchemy goods, you're not harvesting it directly 😉
Don't forget that there are "non-plant" alchemy ingredients you can use without problems. Like insect parts. Or mushrooms. Or something like honey. You could use a mod that allows you to retrieve human related alchemy parts more easily as well.

Or simply purchase potions ...

Are you going to get Ring of Namira? It might add some spice to your survival mode. However, for a better use, additional mods may be required.

[Rez Elwin]

So you're following the Green Pact by not following the Green Pact... alright.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Rabblevox:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

That is not an interpretation of the Green Pact, it is an attempt to rewrite the bits you don't like. The Green Pact makes no distinction between using plants for food and using plants for medicine, none what so ever. Harvesting is SPECIFICALLY forbidden under the Green Pact, you just can't do it without breaking the Pact.

Using fallen bits of wood has long been allowed, and it's even been argued that fallen fruit is ok to eat, THIS is an interpretation of the Green Pact, one that is already in the lore.
So a Wooden house is ok, provided it's all deadfall and none of it is Harvested. And you can gather too.... The problem would be the hardliners who don't agree and will probably try to stop you.

Well, I did say it was a "heretical" interpretation. :) But this makes my RP clearer. I am a religious heretic running for my life.
(and once again RL and RP collide)

It's a PACT, you either follow it or you break it, there is no grey area.
Heresy is applied to religion, and while the Green Pact has religious overtones it is a Pact between the Bosmer and Y'ffre... You either obey it or disobey, no I obey it except for the bits I don't like.

[psychotron666]

Green pact only applies to plants in valenwood, or plants that seeds come from valenwood.

You're okay with Skyrim plants, you're not violating the pact.

[Fear2288]

Yes, I’ve gone back and forth over this too a couple times and even made at least two threads over the years asking others their thoughts and interpretations of the Green Pact.

Ultimately, the consensus of how the lore should be taken on this is that the GP only applies to flora that is NATIVE to Valenwood.

A Bosmer cannot harm the living plantlife of Valenwood, regardless of where they are - period.

HOWEVER, a Bosmer CAN harm plantlife that is native to anywhere outside of Valenwood.

For example, a Bosmer cannot cut down a tree in Valenwood, or pluck flowers/fruit/vegetables from a plant in Valenwood and consume them or use them for alchemical purposes. Additionally, a Bosmer living outside of Valenwood is not allowed to use or consume such things that come from Valenwood.

BUT

A Bosmer living in Valenwood IS allowed to do things like import lumber cut from trees native to Cyrodiil and alchemical plantlife harvested in Hammerfell. Additionally, if a Bosmer is living outside of Valenwood they can go nuts chopping down trees and picking plants all they want - because those trees and plants are not native to Valenwood.

If however, for some reason, someone took a Valenwood tree and planted it in Skyrim - a Bosmer would not be allowed to touch it.

For the purposes of TESV: Skyrim, you can be a Green Pact conscious Bosmer and pick as many plants, use as much lumber, and consume as much veggies and fruit as you desire - they’re not Valenwood trees and plants.

If you wanted to play some kind of ultra-orthodox Bosmer who’s applying the GP to ALL flora, you could, but that means you cannot harvest any plant life or consume anything that was made with plantlife. You COULD get away with purchasing plant-based alchemical ingredients and using gear made with wood though I guess because YOU’RE not the one who went out and chopped down that tree to make that bow, and YOU’RE not the one who went out and plucked those Blue Mountain Flowers from the living plant.

If you wanted your Bosmer to be super ultra-orthodox for some reason I guess you could do that too - it just means you can’t harvest any plantlife, use anything made with plantlife, or consume anything that contains plantlife - ever.

You’d have to limit your alchemical work to ONLY using animal byproducts, you would have to ONLY consume meat, and you wouldn’t be able to use any weapons or armor that utilize wood though- so no using any melee weapons with wooden grips, shields made using wood, bows made out of wood, etc (which I think eliminates your use of most weapons/shields found in the Iron, Steel, Imperial, Ancient Nord, and Forsworn category).

[NecroMaster]

Not every bosmer follows the pact it’s just something most bosmer genuinely follow.

My wood elf character doesn’t follow it.
But then again he’s a night mother worshipper.

[Fear2288]

Originally posted by NecroMaster:

Not every bosmer follows the pact it’s just something most bosmer genuinely follow.

My wood elf character doesn’t follow it.
But then again he’s a night mother worshipper.

Let’s hope for your character’s sake that the myth behind the GP isn’t real…otherwise when he dies his ass will be liquified and trapped in the primordial ooze for all eternity.

That’s Y’ffre’s punishment for Bosmer who don’t follow the GP.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Fear2288:

Originally posted by NecroMaster:

Not every bosmer follows the pact it’s just something most bosmer genuinely follow.

My wood elf character doesn’t follow it.
But then again he’s a night mother worshipper.

Let’s hope for your character’s sake that the myth behind the GP isn’t real…otherwise when he dies his ass will be liquified and trapped in the primordial ooze for all eternity.

That’s Y’ffre’s punishment for Bosmer who don’t follow the GP.

As I understand it, that's only for those who follow the pact and then break it. I don't think your character would be in any danger of becoming ooze if they never followed the Green Pact.

[Fear2288]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

Originally posted by Fear2288:

Let’s hope for your character’s sake that the myth behind the GP isn’t real…otherwise when he dies his ass will be liquified and trapped in the primordial ooze for all eternity.

That’s Y’ffre’s punishment for Bosmer who don’t follow the GP.

As I understand it, that's only for those who follow the pact and then break it. I don't think your character would be in any danger of becoming ooze if they never followed the Green Pact.

This is where ESO kinda ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things up.

ESO made changes to the GP/Bosmer lore by introducing the Vinedusk Rangers - a group of Bosmer who live in Valenwood but have chosen not to follow the Green Pact, and are NOT considered heretics and implies that Bosmer have the option to not follow it.

Prior to the introduction of the Vinedusk Rangers the lore was pretty clear on this: Y’ffre created the Bosmer and told them “you can live here, and I will give you my blessing and protection, but you CANNOT harm The Green - ever. If you do, then it’s eternity in the Ooze for you.”

That strongly suggests that ALL Bosmer are expected to adhere to the GP, and if they don’t - they’re labeled heretics, are expected to be killed on sight, and when they die - it’s Ooze time.

Then here comes ESO with its Vinedusk Rangers…

[Nuheni]

All of my Bosmers are more like Na`vi.
So I do use wood to make a bow and arrows.
I also use natures gifts to make potions, but only what i need.
I hunt, but i don`t kill 47 deers just so i can sell the hides and meat.
I eat when i`m hungry ( I did make a chubby one and even though i absolutely love her look, it`s hard to make her fit in rp wise ) and i sleep when i`m tired.
I also help out when i can and i only strike back when i`m attacked as a "respect life and what gave life" kind of thing.

I do not follow the green pact due to the religious overtones, simply because i loathe all kind of religion in real life.
I do believe there is a "God", some sort of higher being, but it is something we will never comprehend. At least not in this life.
Religion on the other hand are only a way of gaining power and holding power by controlling others with sticks and carrots.
I`ve met and heard from more than enough of the "Do as i say, not as i do" types in my lifetime and since they make my skin crawl in real life, i`m not letting those hypocrites into my fantasy realms as well.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Fear2288:

This is where ESO kinda ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things up.

ESO made changes to the GP/Bosmer lore by introducing the Vinedusk Rangers - a group of Bosmer who live in Valenwood but have chosen not to follow the Green Pact, and are NOT considered heretics and implies that Bosmer have the option to not follow it.

Prior to the introduction of the Vinedusk Rangers the lore was pretty clear on this: Y’ffre created the Bosmer and told them “you can live here, and I will give you my blessing and protection, but you CANNOT harm The Green - ever. If you do, then it’s eternity in the Ooze for you.”

That strongly suggests that ALL Bosmer are expected to adhere to the GP, and if they don’t - they’re labeled heretics, are expected to be killed on sight, and when they die - it’s Ooze time.

Then here comes ESO with its Vinedusk Rangers…

Never played ESO outside the closed Beta, so no Idea who that group is. Though it does seem like it shouldn't be applied to every Bosmer, it's not much of a pact if you're forced to follow it. Usually when it's a pact you have the choice to agree.