Spoiler Snow Elves question

[Capt. Slappy]

Why did the Dwarves blind the Snow Elves? Maybe it gets explained further on, but the answer to this question really needed to be presented when that little bit of lore gets explained. "Oh yeah they wanted us blinded to protect us, but who the hell knows why." This is a pretty monumental interaction and I only get tiny bits and pieces of broken lore. Who the hell wrote this?

[Junipercat]

The Dwemer are a very suspicious race and extremely protective of their knowledge. Blinding the Snow Elves protected their secrets plus allowed them to over generations turn them into a slave race.

Not all lore is spoon fed up front. Some things you piece together over time.

[Capt. Slappy]

Yeah im pretty ♥♥♥♥ at reading the tid bits. I'm starting to remember the slave bits about the snow elves from years ago.

I feel like you should have been able to chat with homie elf a little more about the details. Maybe get some extra bit and bobs about the Dwai.

[Seishisha]

However the Dwemer justified it is somewhat open to interpretation, you could see it as a form of exchange or pact, a straight up deception and exploitation of the circumstances or even a calculated gamble. Either way we know it backfired on them because of the Falmer rebellion that took place.

Personally I always felt like it was a calculated deceit, a way to indenture the Falmer while making them less dangerous, the Dwemer wanted slaves they could control and experiment on, the Falmer were desperate after losing to the invading Atmorans. so they excepted what was clearly a Faustian bargain because they were facing extinction.

[Capt. Slappy]

Whats with the "surprise" betrayal? They clearly became twisted ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up little monsters. Did the Snow elves just have the feels for their former brothers or was there a little something more at play?

[Nitemares]

"they wanted slaves" doesn't ring true to me.

Slaves are an upkeep: they need food, water, clothing, shelter to avoid dying off, and slaves they are dying off are not a bonus, be a net negative as now you bodies and disease to deal with... Sure slaves makes sense if their output exceeds their upkeep... But blind slaves?

What task are you going to give to a blind race that can be done that offsets their costs???
Especially when the dwemer already had a "slave race" in their automations....Things so well made they are still running centuries after the dwemer are gone.

No, I feel something else is behind the blinding of the Snow Elves, something other than slavery...What that is, I have no idea.

[Capt. Slappy]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

"they wanted slaves" doesn't ring true to me.

Slaves are an upkeep: they need food, water, clothing, shelter to avoid dying off, and slaves they are dying off are not a bonus, be a net negative as now you bodies and disease to deal with... Sure slaves makes sense if their output exceeds their upkeep... But blind slaves?

What task are you going to give to a blind race that can be done that offsets their costs???
Especially when the dwemer already had a "slave race" in their automations....Things so well made they are still running centuries after the dwemer are gone.

No, I feel something else is behind the blinding of the Snow Elves, something other than slavery...What that is, I have no idea.

Maybe a quicker extermination, or so the Dwemer thought. Perhaps they didn't really account for the the survivability of the Snow Elves. Seems like a pretty lame and not quite an adequate explanation.

[Rez Elwin]

They did it for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles. They enslaved and blinded an entire race of elves just trying to survive. The Dwemer betrayed them, and tortured them until they devolved into monsters. The Falmer should have black souls like all other Mer, but they don't.

[Seishisha]

Well I think there is some pretty strong lore implications that the Dwemer damaged the Falmers souls, knight paladin Gelebor mentions that the fungus which blinded the Falmer could not have resulted in their degeneration and something else was the cause for their declined intelligence, pretty sure he directly mentions they no longer have black souls, that's why I believe the Falmer were slaves used for experiments.

The Falmer decline is anything but natural, the Dwemer took them in, took advantage of their plight to experiment on them, this lead to the eventual rebellion which may have been a factor for the Dwemer leaving Nirn, or perhaps their goal was always to leave and the experiments on souls were simply a part of that, or maybe it's completely unrelated. We'll probably never get a definitive answer from Bethesda.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Seishisha:

Well I think there is some pretty strong lore implications that the Dwemer damaged the Falmers souls, knight paladin Gelebor mentions that the fungus which blinded the Falmer could not have resulted in their degeneration and something else was the cause for their declined intelligence, pretty sure he directly mentions they no longer have black souls, that's why I believe the Falmer were slaves used for experiments.

The Falmer decline is anything but natural, the Dwemer took them in, took advantage of their plight to experiment on them, this lead to the eventual rebellion which may have been a factor for the Dwemer leaving Nirn, or perhaps their goal was always to leave and the experiments on souls were simply a part of that, or maybe it's completely unrelated. We'll probably never get a definitive answer from Bethesda.

I don't think the rebellion was all that important to them to be Honest. Their main bases of operation were not in Skyrim, but Morrowind, and there are no Falmer in Morrowind.

It any specific event would have caused them to vanish, it would have been the Battle of Red Mountain, as they vanished during that war. It seems that doing... something with the Tools of Kagrenac, makes the user vanish, as seem in Skyrim when Arniel uses Keening.

I assume the reason the entire race (aside from ones not on Nirn) vanished instead of just Kargrenac was due to the empowerment of Lorkhan's Heart. I think they may have intended to leave at some point, but I think I happened sooner than they intended. I do not think any Dwemer would miss a chance to see Numidium walk, and I think that was what they were tying to accomplish. After all, we know from how Tiber Septim used it, it's quite effective in battle.


There is one other race I know of that devolved into white souled creatures, Minotaurs. They used to be much smarter and lived among humans, but eons of Exile and isolation made then less intelligent and eventually turned them into beasts. Though still smarter than many common creatures, they are capable of using tools and do have their own form of communication and even art, Kinda like Giants in that regard.

[Ihateeverybody]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

"they wanted slaves" doesn't ring true to me.

Slaves are an upkeep: they need food, water, clothing, shelter to avoid dying off, and slaves they are dying off are not a bonus, be a net negative as now you bodies and disease to deal with... Sure slaves makes sense if their output exceeds their upkeep... But blind slaves?

What task are you going to give to a blind race that can be done that offsets their costs???
Especially when the dwemer already had a "slave race" in their automations....Things so well made they are still running centuries after the dwemer are gone.

No, I feel something else is behind the blinding of the Snow Elves, something other than slavery...What that is, I have no idea.

Good source of souls (Soul Gems) for powering your machinery. Notice most dwemer machinery drops them?

Tie that into their Emnity with Azura who is also trafficking souls. I mean...1+1 always equals 2.

You don't think Azura is skimming soul energy off every Soul going through the Star?

[Fear2288]

The Dwemer and the Snow Elves weren’t exactly best buddies. I don’t think they were actively hostile to one another, just sorta tolerated each other’s presence in Skyrim as long one didn’t interfere with the goings on of the other.

This is pretty clear when Ysgramor and his 500 return and start curb stomping the Snow Elves - the Dwemer didn’t really care. They felt no obligation to help the Snow Elves, and must’ve not considered the Atmorans that much of an actual threat to them as they didn’t feel it necessary to get involved.

The Snow Elves seeking asylum with the Dwemer was an act of desperation, and one that the Dwemer took advantage of.

I’m fairly certain that the lore says the Dwemer intended to use the Snow Elves as servants and slaves. They agreed to take them in but told them that the price was their eyesight. An unusual demand, but one that was more attractive than death or enslavement at the hands of the Atmorans.

Not long after being blinded, the Snow Elves were “betrayed” by the Dwemer and forced into servitude.

One may ask what good a blind slave is, but remember we’re talking about the most technologically advanced civilization on Nirn in an IP where magic exists - the Dwemer would’ve found things for them to do.

Ultimately, blinding the Snow Elves was a way to control them and keep them at a disadvantage. They also hoped that it would dissuade any attempts by the Snow Elves to organize themselves and rebel.

The Romans supposedly did similar things to dissuade their slaves from rebelling, most famously during Spartacus’ uprising when they were going around Italy freeing slaves to add to their numbers. Either to prevent their slaves from rebelling (when word reached them that Spartacus was near), or if a slave owner fled their land but didn’t take their slaves with them - they sometimes would blind or maim (taking off hands or feet) them so they couldn’t try and escape or would be useless to Spartacus’ army when they arrived.

Now, you may think “that’s kinda brutal, the Dwemer wouldn’t do that”, but the Dwemer were kinda a-holes who gave the Altmer a run for their money in the arena of arrogance.

Remember, this was a civilization that valued logic and practicality over morality and ethics. Some people mistakenly believe that the Dwemer were atheists because they didn’t revere any of the Aedra or Daedra but that isn’t the case: they didn’t not believe in the gods, they just didn’t think they were all that special. While all the other races were in awe of the gods’ power, the Dwemer just sorta looked at it and said “hold my beer, imma make something that can do that but better”.

In a way, the Dwemer were just a bunch of Ricks from Rick & Morty.

So they blinded and then enslaved the Snow Elves, and treated them pretty harshly. Those torture devices you find in all the Dwemer ruins? Those weren’t put there by bandits or Falmer, those were used by the Dwemer to deal with Snow Elves that didn’t behave themselves.

Eventually the Snow Elves did rise up though, and the War of the Crag raged on for quite awhile underneath Skyrim. It went on right up to the sudden disappearance of the Dwemer.

After that, the Snow Elves were pretty much trapped underground, alone - unable to get through the defenses and legions of automatons still active in the Dwemer cities. So they retreated further underground and eventually created their main “hive” in Blackreach.

As centuries passed, their bodies changed and their minds deteriorated to a more animalistic state. They formed a kind of symbiotic relationship with the Chaurus, and became what we see as the Falmer in 4E201.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

Good source of souls (Soul Gems) for powering your machinery. Notice most dwemer machinery drops them?

Tie that into their Emnity with Azura who is also trafficking souls. I mean...1+1 always equals 2.

You don't think Azura is skimming soul energy off every Soul going through the Star?

If they were going to use them for thier souls I doubt they would have wanted them to devolve and lose thier black souls. Black Souls are always at Grand level, which given how that makes stronger enchants and recharges more it should make a better "battery" for the automatons.

Not to mention, lowly slave falmer who are likely not it the best condition would have very weak souls.

[Ihateeverybody]

Rez, see Fear's post above, he always does great info posts. This was before they devolved.

[Alex]

Honestly, I think the only reason for the Falmer to be like that is because bethesda wanted a goblin replacement.

Everything else doesn't make sense.
1. The Dwemer didn't need slaves, they had their automatons.
2. Even if they would need slaves, blinding them should make the Falmer nearly useless.
3. Soul farming could've been done with daedra instead. The automatons only drop "normal" soul gems, anyway.

Sure, we can chalk it off to a horrible experiement gone wrong, but I don't consider bethesda to be creative enough in their writing for something like that. There's also nothing to point towards such a theory, like a daedric pact, for example, which would have enough power to mutate a whole race. Therefore, I consider the true reason for the Falmer to be like that as bethesda's half-assedry disguised as a mystery. Well, at least until some official lore clarification (maybe in TESVI) may prove me wrong.

[Nitemares]

Fully conjecture here:

One possible reason I can think of Dwemer blinding the Snow elves in turn for sanctuary was to keep the Nords at bay..

I don't think the dwemer liked the prospect of war with the Nords all that much at that time, and given the blood lust in the Nords, I am sure te edwemer were worried that if they took the snow elves in, the Nords would turn their Ire to them..

So to dissuade that, they blinded the Snow Elves, so they could turn the to the Nords and say "Look, you want them dead, we get that, but look at them now, blind and helpless and confined to our cities. They will never pose a threat to Man again. You've won. Now leave them and us alone"

And the Nords may have settled for that. After all they drove them out of skyrim, shattered their power, burned their cities, and now caused the few remaining to be blinded for all time... Sounds like revenge, and to some a fate worse than death..

As for the de-evolution of the Snow elves into the falmer.....I have the feeling that was a slow process that happened over generations, and most likely after the dwemer disappearance.. by again several generations.
As to "why" it happened... We have a blind race, in a strange (to them) environment, where the masters of the realm are gone (Dwemer) and the automations don't respond to the snow elves.... As traditional food sources get consumed and the blind elves fumble around trying to grow food, they are forced to eat other things.. such as the various fungus and spores of the under ground.... These fungus and spores slowly devolved them....


At least that;s the best I got with the limit information we have, and the "unreliable narrator" of our sources.