Theory on the Origin of Orcs

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

In each of the Games, Orcs are one of the central plot-holes. None of them seem to be in total agreement on anything that has to do with them, Even the Orcs aren't even in agreement on their Origin.

There are numerous instances in the lore that heavily imply Orcs were in Tamriel long before Trinimac ever fell, or in some cases before he ever even stepped foot on the mainland.

It's easy to hand wave these claims as bad writing, lord knows the games are plagued with the ♥♥♥♥ (Ysgrammor and his Companions being the first Humans on the Mainland. Hybrid Races simply no longer existing probably because it would have cost too much money to model them properly, list goes on)

But, I'm not convinced this is the case here. The fact that the only consistent thing about them across all the games and lore is that no one really knows.

Most folk point towards Mora's quest where you need to get the blood of Mer and Orc being one of the targets as proof, but when you think about it all that does is prove they are from Elves, not that they are from Trinimac (And realistically that quest should have also required a Breton's blood as the lore From Morrowind Back is clear that Bretons are Half-Elves, but Bugthesda doesn't like Halfsies anymore, but I digress.)

My Theory is that the Orcs are the Mixture of Trinimac's followers and the native Goblins and that the Giants in Skyrim are a mixture of Ysgrammor's followers and Orcs, my rational with the Giant connection is look an Orc in game and then look at a Giant, There are certainly similarities there. A giant roughly looks like what one would expect a Human and Orc hybrid would look like. They both have Knife Ears, They both have Tusk like Teeth (more noticeable on Orcs) they both have Horns, specifically Horns in the same pattern. Even the way Giants live is slightly more primitive version of how the Orcs live.

The reason Orcs are called "The Cursed ones" isn't because of Trinimac or Malacath, it's because any race that mingles their genetics with a Goblin, that offspring is more violent and typically less sophisticated than the "enlightned" half of that union.

In a way Trinimac and his followers did Birth the Orc Race, but not in the way the lore claims.

This hints at another Theory of mine, that most of the stories from the age of Myth are just that, Myth's and Stories. When you dig deep enough into them the games even sort of indicate that's probably the case.

The only real problem with this theory is Bugthesda's weird exclusion of Halfsies. Any Child born from an interracial couple will have all the physical traits of the mother and little, if any, of the Father... Mostly, it's a bit more fast and loose in the expanded universe, but more consistent in the games. I think that might be because Todd doesn't really anything to do with the Expanded Universe, it's mostly Kirkbride's writing and he had much more creative visions for the Elder Scrolls that sadly Todd didn't agree with.

Small Aside: But apparently some of the weirder ♥♥♥♥ that we did get in Morrowind is because Kirkbride effectively manipulated Todd into putting it in the game. He'd give him a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy version of something knowing he would reject then present him the slightly more grounded version expecting Todd to accept that because it was something he could more easily wrap his head around in comparison to the first draft.

Then you have Julian Lafey's stories of Todd before he was anything important, basically Todd was a terrible Dungeon Master when they would play DnD together and he would always try to funnel the players into playing out the story he wanted them to play, regardless of their inputs.

It paints the picture Todd probably isn't a High-Fantasy, Creative Nerd. But more of a.... Chess Club (Which I know he was apart of) Math is fun! kind of nerd. But, I digress. a Bean counter, I suppose would be one way of putting it.

[Ihateeverybody]

Dragonbreaks kind of screw with the lore. There is the Arena/Daggerfall Lore, there is Morrowind Lore, and Oblvion on Lore.

You can actually chart the Games with a lag on the culterial zeitghast. Morrowind had a lot of dev time (because they couldn't sell it to anyone. Then Xbox picked it up. Lord of the Rings was the catalyst for oblivion, Viking stuff (there were multiple outbreaks of it) for Skyrim. Who knows what ES6 will bring, but likely we will be able to point at influences in the culture a few years (within 5-10) as the catalyst.

There are points in the lore I thought were missed opportunities (not to downplay the orc thing). The biggest one is the Magic changes (things going away, and whole schools being redefined) could have been blamed on the Tower/Anchor losses. As each bit of reality was weakened or destroyed it redifined that reality with what was and was not possible. Thats literally a 5 minute job.

[Valden21]

OP, official canon on the origins on the origins of orcs is that there's two possibilities. The first is the more well-known story: they're elves who transformed after their deity, Triminac, was eaten alive by Boethiah and then pooped out. The second theory is close to what your describe. However, there's one major problem with your theory. That issue is that while you're drawing a direct genetic connection between orcs and goblins, TES lore doesn't actually say that one exists. All it says about that is that "some sources speak" that there's such a connection, and it ALSO says that some of these sources are specifically bigoted against orcs. See here: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc#History.

Furthermore, your own headcanon's also lumping the giants into there, but that has its own problems. While the official lore never actually says where the giants are from, it DOES indicate that some scholars used to believe that Nords and Giants used to share a common ancestry, via the Atmorans. Again, it must be emphasized that SOME SCHOLARS believe this; what these scholars believe isn't official canon. There IS no official canon on the origins of the giants, and there likely never will be. So if your own headcanon says something different, perfectly fine, as long as it STAYS headcanon.

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

There are points in the lore I thought were missed opportunities (not to downplay the orc thing). The biggest one is the Magic changes (things going away, and whole schools being redefined) could have been blamed on the Tower/Anchor losses. As each bit of reality was weakened or destroyed it redifined that reality with what was and was not possible. Thats literally a 5 minute job.

But that still doesn't make sense, as losing a Tower has MUCH bigger affects than just the way magic works. We KNOW what happens when a Tower changes or is destroyed; a Dragon Break. Those events are so major that in-universe books get written about the changes that just ONE Dragon Break creates. But here's the thing: both of the Dragon Breaks that were caused by a change in the Towers happened BEFORE the third TES game, and the third game makes no mention of magic ever having been different. So there's more to it than just laziness on the part of the devs.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by Valden21:

But that still doesn't make sense, as losing a Tower has MUCH bigger affects than just the way magic works. We KNOW what happens when a Tower changes or is destroyed; a Dragon Break. Those events are so major that in-universe books get written about the changes that just ONE Dragon Break creates. But here's the thing: both of the Dragon Breaks that were caused by a change in the Towers happened BEFORE the third TES game, and the third game makes no mention of magic ever having been different. So there's more to it than just laziness on the part of the devs.

Actually, it literally is that simple. Todd and Emil have openly confirmed this. Magic slowly leaving Nirn, the EU explanation is fine (If not a bit regarded. The sheer number of retcons this series has had is insulting. I used to ♥♥♥♥ on Kirkbride for it, but at this point I don't think it's fair to blame him. Todd can't keep his ♥♥♥♥ together for two games straight. I'm not even against Magic slowly leaving the world, you just need the sentient races to realize it and advance in tech to make up for it like how Fable handled it.) but the real answer is they just want to water the games down. The exact words they both used is "Streamlining".

So, Minor and occasionally Major things change between games and then they have to come up with some in-universe explanation for it.

The Triple A Industry as a whole seems to view it's consumers as borderline Brain Dead even though the success of Baldur's Gate 3 would indicate otherwise. Not saying that's the deepest game in the whole wide world or anything, but it's a lot deeper than Bethesda has dared to go in a very long time.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by Valden21:

OP, official canon on the origins on the origins of orcs is that there's two possibilities. The first is the more well-known story: they're elves who transformed after their deity, Triminac, was eaten alive by Boethiah and then pooped out. The second theory is close to what your describe. However, there's one major problem with your theory. That issue is that while you're drawing a direct genetic connection between orcs and goblins, TES lore doesn't actually say that one exists. All it says about that is that "some sources speak" that there's such a connection, and it ALSO says that some of these sources are specifically bigoted against orcs. See here: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc#History.

Furthermore, your own headcanon's also lumping the giants into there, but that has its own problems. While the official lore never actually says where the giants are from, it DOES indicate that some scholars used to believe that Nords and Giants used to share a common ancestry, via the Atmorans. Again, it must be emphasized that SOME SCHOLARS believe this; what these scholars believe isn't official canon. There IS no official canon on the origins of the giants, and there likely never will be. So if your own headcanon says something different, perfectly fine, as long as it STAYS headcanon.

I don't know dude... I just think there is something far deeper indirectly hinted at with the Orcs. Smoking Gun being even they don't agree with their Origin Story, at least not universally. And even then, their Origin Story is more than a little Bias. Shamed High-Elves that smeared themselves in a Demon Prince known for Lying just to cause conflict's feces? It doesn't really make a lot of sense... And it comes from High-Elves none the less, not a group that's above lying so long as it makes them look good somehow.

I really do want to dismiss it as just ♥♥♥♥♥♥ writing, but there's so much there that indicates it's probably not the case.

You can't even dismiss as "Demons are a Trixy bunch" it just doesn't feel like that's whats going on here.

It's sort of Like Game of Thrones. It's a half finished story, I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I mean it literally isn't done yet, but it's still be written, just not in the areas that have been started.

Like an Author with ADHD, they get Ideas and then move on to a new idea before they finish fleshing things out.

[Valden21]

OP, did you pay attention to the key phrase in the articles I cited? Did you even read the articles themselves? "Some scholars believe". That means that both in-universe and IRL, there's disagreement on what the actual origins are. Bethesda set it up that way so that we could choose for ourselves. Put it this way: this is a setting in which the stars are just holes in the fabric of space-time, through which the raw stuff of magic shines. Given that, why SHOULD the explanation be anything more than what we've been given? Beyond those two possibilities, anything else on the subject is simply headcanon, not ACTUAL canon. My point is this: We're not the ones who decide the canon; the devs do that. We can make requests, and we can make suggestions, but that's ALL we can do. At the end of the day, making the call on what is and what isn't canon is up to the devs, not us. Headcanon's fine, but it should STAY headcanon.

[Ihateeverybody]

The big selling point of Daggerfall was the Books were written with Lore Bias (meaning the INGAME writers had either an agenda or purpose). T

hat never really did what they wanted because a lot of people playing took the books (as they always do) Gospel or Facts.

I think they wanted people to read between the lines, but most people can't read (understand context, metaphor, etc)....so.....

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

The big selling point of Daggerfall was the Books were written with Lore Bias (meaning the INGAME writers had either an agenda or purpose). T

hat never really did what they wanted because a lot of people playing took the books (as they always do) Gospel or Facts.

I think they wanted people to read between the lines, but most people can't read (understand context, metaphor, etc)....so.....

To be fair the games give no reason not to take everything they say as absolute fact and nothing but reasons to do so.

Magic is slowly leaving, Wizards of today are noticeably weaker than they were several centuries ago, smarter denizens of Nirn would realize this and invest more in Technology to make up for their over-reliance on Magic, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Got all this Dwemer Tech laying around and only a small handful of Scholars have any interest in learning it's secrets and mass producing it themselves and these experts are usually ignored by their Leaders.

The Empire would never need to make deals with the Dominion if they had the secrets of Steam Centurion Creation. The Knife-Ears only barely won, imagine if they had to go up against Man AND an army of undying, unwavering Steam Robots.

Same goes for Ayleid Tech. No real interest is given to Varla and Welkynd Stones.

Imagine if they combined the two.

Dwemer Automatron powered by an Ayelid Crystal made of allegedly pure magic.

[Melkolf]

The lore is so inconsistent between games in so many different ways, most 'lore' discussions between games are a simple waste of time.

Of all the games it seems Skyrim screws the previous lore the most. Just one more factor in how the game dumbed down the previous games.

The prospects for the next iteration, both lore wise and game wise, makes me shudder.

[Ihateeverybody]

Originally posted by Melkolf:

The lore is so inconsistent between games in so many different ways, most 'lore' discussions between games are a simple waste of time.

Of all the games it seems Skyrim screws the previous lore the most. Just one more factor in how the game dumbed down the previous games.

The prospects for the next iteration, both lore wise and game wise, makes me shudder.

My main problem with the Lore of Skyrim is The College of Winterhold and The Companions. Two Stand ins for the The Mages Guild and the ?Fighter's Guild? (That shows how little I remember the previous games, I cannot even remember if that was the name or not).

Two organizations I never heard of in previous games. Two mythical organizations that existed for Thousands of Years. You can't just drop Them in that way. You gotta build them up over a few Games. Like the Psigic Order. Who here has never heard of the Psygic Order?

The Aldmeri Dominion seemed tacked on also but I didn't want to go through all the old games and see if they were mentioned. We had an Aldmeri (thought in Daggerfall, they were implied to be Almost Wood Elven or Bosmer like (this whole mer thing came about in Morrowind I think.).

I know its nitpicky, but It would be like me mentioning Shasta Soft drinks. Who is going to get that reference?

[Death Approaches]

I'd back up much farther than games, fantasy novels of the '30s and such, even older since the first time "orc" is used is apparently Beowolf, a thousand years is a bit of a long time to track down origins; and while tolkien's "the hobbit / there and back again" from '37 and gygax's D&D from '73 may have made the terms mainstream, scandinavian trolls and germanic kobolds, medieval era terms for monsters like the european goblin (probably norman, but lost to time and a time when things were passed verbally not written.) have existed much longer than fantasy novels or computer games.

any birth-of-computer-gaming era game developer today who's in their 60s-90s who was involved in this, read all those novels too when they were 11-16; originality was never part of the concept... like every author you backfill details to flesh out your own lore. so what's ES canon and what's origin may never come parallel in, well, just about anything.

hey, Shasta is still made, btw! 125+ years, that's impressive.

[smr1957]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

- snip - ...It would be like me mentioning Shasta Soft drinks. Who is going to get that reference?

Shasta - it's been ages since I even last heard of it, let alone seen it!

[alexander_dougherty]

Theorem is nice, but a simpler one is that Bethesda messed up and forgot when the Orcs were transformed and put references in that break the Lore....

[Perplex]

Orcs are ♥♥♥♥.

[Valden21]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

Two organizations I never heard of in previous games. Two mythical organizations that existed for Thousands of Years. You can't just drop Them in that way. You gotta build them up over a few Games. Like the Psigic Order. Who here has never heard of the Psygic Order?

The Aldmeri Dominion seemed tacked on also but I didn't want to go through all the old games and see if they were mentioned. We had an Aldmeri (thought in Daggerfall, they were implied to be Almost Wood Elven or Bosmer like (this whole mer thing came about in Morrowind I think.).

I know its nitpicky, but It would be like me mentioning Shasta Soft drinks. Who is going to get that reference?

The Psijic Order's actually mentioned quite a bit in the lore of the setting, usually in the in-game books. It's basically an order of monks that's focused on the Mysticism school of magic. The Mages' Guild founder, Vanus Galerion, had been a Psijic.

As for the Aldmeri Dominion, that's something that came in from ESO. The in-game Aldmeri Dominion is actually the THIRD incarnation of the group. The first incarnation existed between the second and third Cyrodiil-based empires, and the second incarnation briefly showed up during Tiber Septim's unification campaign. The Dominion's goal has pretty much been the same the whole time: absolute elven supremacy over the continent. Sounds like the Thalmor, right? That's because starting with the second incarnation of the Dominion, it's been led by the Thalmor.

[Death Approaches]

Originally posted by smr1957:

Shasta - it's been ages since I even last heard of it, let alone seen it!

if you're having a craving from your childhood:
Walmart stocks a few including a variety-pack case![www.walmart.com]