How come the Thieves Guild behaves differently in Skyrim?

[QHD_144hz_MLED_5ms]

I remember in Oblivion, the Thieves Guild was more of like a Robin Hood vigilante kind of organization. It was cool that practically all the beggars were like undercover agents for them, and they were being led by the Gray Fox, whose identity is a mystery and always changes over the generations.

Kind of weird the one in Skyrim has a different GuildMaster who is nothing like the Gray Fox; while the Nightingale are cool, it wasn't expanded upon much.

Also where are the douyins? There's fencers but no douyins for the Thieves Guild. Douyins take care of more higher matters like taking care of bribes and giving orders to underlings, etc. I know Delvin and Vex kind of fit those roles, but they're not given ranks similar to other guilds that only have newcomer and leader.

It's sad that the Thieves Guild isn't like the one from Oblivion; they steal and harass the poor, while being a sellout to powerful families.

[Von Faustien]

Morrowind also had a none gray fox guild master. Still fit the more Robin hood vibe though.

I guess youn could blame it all on Mercer being a ♥♥♥♥

[QHD_144hz_MLED_5ms]

Originally posted by Von Faustien:

Morrowind also had a none gray fox guild master. Still fit the more Robin hood vibe though.

I guess youn could blame it all on Mercer being a ♥♥♥♥

But the former guildmaster was lame af too

[Von Faustien]

Originally posted by Sleepy-Killary_Trump:

Originally posted by Von Faustien:

Morrowind also had a none gray fox guild master. Still fit the more Robin hood vibe though.

I guess youn could blame it all on Mercer being a ♥♥♥♥

But the former guildmaster was lame af too

The prior guild master was a learned schoolar who knew Falmer had a Dunmer Wafiu and a neat backstory about selling his soul to half naked lady demon godess of shadows for bawler magic power.

[Bear]

Correct me please, but I thought all chapters of the brotherhood are independent? They all can have their own culture, ways of doing their job, etc?

[Fear2288]

It’s realistic that different “chapters” of any guild/organization is going to have differing characteristics based on their environment, the people that make up that chapter, and other factors while perhaps being tied together by a basic set of “rules” and “objectives”.

I imagine the Thieves Guild has really only one shared purpose: to steal things.

How they steal things, what they steal, and who they steal from then would be dictated by the members of that specific chapter.

The game makes a point to paint the Thieves Guild of Riften as being a shadow of their former selves and barely holding together.

If you’ve ever been a part of any organization or social club, you know that when things get tough and you’re barely holding together - concessions are made, standards of membership decline, and things which your organization may not have done before or “rules”/“lines” that you previously didn’t break or cross become viable options that may need to be taken in order for your organization to survive.

I feel like that’s the kind of situation the TG of Riften are in.

Perhaps they once used to be a kind of “Robin Hood” group, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor and helping out the downtrodden, but times got hard, the law started cracking down, and the Black Briars moved in and started calling the shots when it came to Riften’s criminal activities.

The TG suffered, became more desperate to stay afloat, began stealing from the common citizen (which turned the public against them), and started taking in new members who may have had far less “noble” intentions and motivations.

[QHD_144hz_MLED_5ms]

Originally posted by Von Faustien:

The prior guild master was a learned schoolar who knew Falmer had a Dunmer Wafiu and a neat backstory about selling his soul to half naked lady demon godess of shadows for bawler magic power.

You don't need to tell me that, I already beat the Thieves Guild questline.

[QHD_144hz_MLED_5ms]

Originally posted by Bear:

Correct me please, but I thought all chapters of the brotherhood are independent? They all can have their own culture, ways of doing their job, etc?

Where did it say that? The Companions and College of Winterhold are their own thing entirely. So it makes sense for them to not resemble the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild. But the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are not.

[QHD_144hz_MLED_5ms]

Originally posted by Fear2288:

It’s realistic that different “chapters” of any guild/organization is going to have differing characteristics based on their environment, the people that make up that chapter, and other factors while perhaps being tied together by a basic set of “rules” and “objectives”.

The Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim is different cause Astrid decided to not follow the 5 Tenents in order to flourish while the other sanctuaries following the old ways didn't. But in the end stuff happens and the old ways are brought back so whatever.

Doesn't make sense for Thieves Guild to continue to act the way they do even after the player restores it to its former glory. Also I don't really care about your headcanon, even if it can be accepted as a potential Dragon Break.

[Jirki88]

Originally posted by Sleepy-Killary_Trump:

Originally posted by Bear:

Correct me please, but I thought all chapters of the brotherhood are independent? They all can have their own culture, ways of doing their job, etc?

Where did it say that? The Companions and College of Winterhold are their own thing entirely. So it makes sense for them to not resemble the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild. But the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are not.

The Dark Brotherhood is centralized due to the Night Mother and the Listener. The Thieves Guild, however, is not. The Gray Fox is a distinctly Cyrodiil thing, while Nocturnal is a Skyrim one.

It's also worth noting that in both Morrowind and Skyrim, while there is a Thieves Guild you can join, there are also rival guilds. In Morrowind, the Cammona Tong, with Fighters Guild as puppets, and in Skyrim, for example the Summerset Shadows. It simply speaks to the decentralization - each province has it's own quirks, especially as time passes (there is more than two centuries between the events of Oblivion and Skyrim).

[QHD_144hz_MLED_5ms]

Originally posted by Jirki88:

The Dark Brotherhood is centralized due to the Night Mother and the Listener. The Thieves Guild, however, is not. The Gray Fox is a distinctly Cyrodiil thing, while Nocturnal is a Skyrim one.

Nocturnal is a Daedric Prince, the Gray Fox isn't. Or are you implying Nocturnal is the de facto leader since the Gray Fox helmet is her artifact?

[Jirki88]

Originally posted by Sleepy-Killary_Trump:

Originally posted by Jirki88:

The Dark Brotherhood is centralized due to the Night Mother and the Listener. The Thieves Guild, however, is not. The Gray Fox is a distinctly Cyrodiil thing, while Nocturnal is a Skyrim one.

Nocturnal is a Daedric Prince, the Gray Fox isn't. Or are you implying Nocturnal is the de facto leader since the Gray Fox helmet is her artifact?

I mean, no, Nocturnal has traits that makes them a patron of Thieves, but they only actively take an interest when it comes to the Nightingales. Beyond that, the Thieves Guild rules itself - as long as the Twilight Sepulcher is kept safe, Nocturnal probably doesn't care much. The Mask of the Gray Fox may be a Nocturnal artifact, but how the Thieves Guild in Cyrodiil is run is down to the person wearing it, really.

The Thieves Guild in Morrowind also didn't have any real associations to Nocturnal, and was shaped by the personality of it's leader (Gentleman Jim Stacey). Just because the guild is called Thieves Guild everywhere doesn't mean it's an entity, because it isn't. It's separate ones for the three provinces.

[Fear2288]

Originally posted by Sleepy-Killary_Trump:

Originally posted by Fear2288:

It’s realistic that different “chapters” of any guild/organization is going to have differing characteristics based on their environment, the people that make up that chapter, and other factors while perhaps being tied together by a basic set of “rules” and “objectives”.

The Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim is different cause Astrid decided to not follow the 5 Tenents in order to flourish while the other sanctuaries following the old ways didn't. But in the end stuff happens and the old ways are brought back so whatever.

Doesn't make sense for Thieves Guild to continue to act the way they do even after the player restores it to its former glory. Also I don't really care about your headcanon, even if it can be accepted as a potential Dragon Break.

Headcanon?

It’s common sense and the ability to look at the situation and interpret it realistically.

Your belief that the TG is this group of multi-national Robin Hoods is the actual “headcanon” here.

[QHD_144hz_MLED_5ms]

Originally posted by Fear2288:

Headcanon?

It’s common sense and the ability to look at the situation and interpret it realistically.

Your belief that the TG is this group of multi-national Robin Hoods is the actual “headcanon” here.

Aren't you interpreting that as headcanon? We're just responding in circles here.

[Fear2288]

Originally posted by Sleepy-Killary_Trump:

Originally posted by Fear2288:

Headcanon?

It’s common sense and the ability to look at the situation and interpret it realistically.

Your belief that the TG is this group of multi-national Robin Hoods is the actual “headcanon” here.

Aren't you interpreting that as headcanon? We're just responding in circles here.

Not really.

You asked a question, I provided you with an answer that’s based on the lore, what’s presented to us in-game, and what would fall under common sense and using observational skills when interpreting the Riften TG’s environment and circumstances.

You didn’t like the answer because it didn’t mesh with your belief that ALL chapters of the TG are just “good guys who steal stuff” based off one portrayal of them in Oblivion, and then labeled my answer as “head cannon” and disregarded it.

If you wanted to make a thread about how you like the Oblivion TG over the Skyrim TG - you should’ve just done that instead of asking people WHY Skyrim’s TG is so different than Oblivion’s TG.

[Liquid Inc]

Originally posted by Sleepy-Killary_Trump:

It's sad that the Thieves Guild isn't like the one from Oblivion; they steal and harass the poor, while being a sellout to powerful families.

Well the flagon was once a busy place, and given mercers actions, they've been unable to hold on the cities. Enthir, for example,becomes a fence for the guild, among others, so it seems likely Skyrim's TG was a lot like the Imperial variant before mercer became the guild master.

It's also said in the game that they allied with the black briars simply to survive, obviously being so few they couldn't stand against a much richer adversary in maven.

Im not so sure any of the thieves guilds are really "take from the bad, give to the poor". They all do it for a profit for themselves in the end, regardless of whether a beggar or two profit from it.

just my 2 cents