The Umbra Debate

[Fear2288]

This isn’t new, but I don’t know if the matter was ever resolved.

Apparently, this was/is a “controversy” among some self-styled lore experts and opponents of the Creation Club/paid mods.

But I don’t really get why.

The argument seems to be that Umbra cannot exist in TESV because as per the events of the novels The Infernal City and The Lord of Souls (which take place between TESIV and TESV), Umbra is destroyed.

But…isn’t Umbra a Daedric artifact? An object created in Oblivion by Clavicus Vile? An object that is - in a way - an extension or piece of Vile himself?

Like most if not all things born of Oblivion, Daedric artifacts aren’t subject to the “rules” of reality (as it is in Mundus). They can inexplicably appear and disappear, seemingly travel great distances on their own, take on new and different powers and abilities, and change physical appearance.

If memory serves me correctly, anything and everything born of Oblivion never really “dies” or gets “destroyed” - it returns to the void and its spirit/essence is either “reborn” after an indeterminable amount of time or can be reshaped into something new/different.

So if that’s true, then wouldn’t Umbra getting destroyed at the end of Lord of Souls just mean that it returned to Oblivion where it was or could be “reborn”? Couldn’t Vile just remake it or make a new one?

What critical piece of information am I missing here that justifies the accusation that the Umbra CC cannot be considered “lore friendly”?

Or is this accusation false and just coming from individuals whose intentions were/are to disparage and invalidate the Umbra CC because they have negative opinions regarding the very concept/purpose of the Creation Club?

[FauxFurry]

That is pretty much right. It also serves as a convenient way to side step the consequences of player choice in previous TES games where there was an option to destroy Daedric artifacts.
In TES 5, the Skull of Corruption, Mehrunes Razor and Azura's Star can all be destroyed, corrupted or kept disassembled but one can rest assured that by TES 6, every one of them will be reconstituted as if nothing ever happened to them using that same pre-established rule.

[Rez Elwin]

The sword was not created in Oblivon or by a deadric prince. Umbra was created by a mortal witch at the request of Clavicus Vile. He did give her a portion of his power for it, but she tricked him, and the power became it's own separate sentient entity, sort of like Barbas if I had to guess.

Once Vile had reacquired the Sword after the Hero of Kvatch gave it to him, the sword being it's own being, betrayed him, stole more of his power and tried to flee his realm, which it was eventually able to do. With some help, it tore a piece of Vile's realm away and created Umbriel, the floating city.

Vile obviously didn't let this go, in his weakened state, he made a deal with Attrebus Mede, (grandson of the Emperor in Skyrim) who retrieved and ultimately destroyed the sword, and Vile got all his power back.

So it is is unlike any other deadric artifact, and I do not think it can reconstitute itself like the others can, and even if it could, I think Clavicus Vile would be keeping a much closer eye on it, and never letting it leave his realm again.

[steventirey]

We're talking about a setting where multiple, contradictory endings and events happen. All simultaneously. Look up what a dragon break is. It is entirely possible that something both happens and doesn't happen at the same time.

[alexander_dougherty]

The books are not canon, Bethesda have stated this on multiple occassions.
So it doesn't matter what happened in the books.

[alexander_dougherty]

They also sometimes say some of the books are canon, just to confuse you, but later contradict themselves saying "no they aren't" (literally what was said at the beginning of one of their posts).

[Freeman]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

The books are not canon, Bethesda have stated this on multiple occassions.
So it doesn't matter what happened in the books.

Source?

[R4ndomG4mer]

I won't try to guess what is or isn't considered canon, but after looking through this: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Umbra

I would argue that it's not implausible for previous events to be true, while still having Umbra appear in Skyrim. At its last appearance, Umbra disappeared in a cloud of smoke and Clavicus Vile "seemed to reclaim his power," but knowing him, that may well be a lie/pretense to cover the fact that Umbra had escaped him once again.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

The books are not canon, Bethesda have stated this on multiple occassions.
So it doesn't matter what happened in the books.

Pretty sure they stated the two books written by Keyes are canon. Not to mention the floating city is mentioned in this game, why do that if it didn't happen?

Even if they decided later on the books weren't canon, they are according to Skyrim, and is why Umbra should not exist.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

The books are not canon, Bethesda have stated this on multiple occassions.
So it doesn't matter what happened in the books.

Pretty sure they stated the two books written by Keyes are canon. Not to mention the floating city is mentioned in this game, why do that if it didn't happen?

Even if they decided later on the books weren't canon, they are according to Skyrim, and is why Umbra should not exist.

They have stated it both ways, and contradicted themselves endlessly....
But my personal take is that when the next game comes out, they will turn around and say that the books aren't canon and that they have said so previously.

Umbra is to me a representation of TES not progressing, it shouldn't have been in Oblivion, and the fact the CC brought it back shouldn't have happened... Giving us some Dragonslaying artifacts, apart from one Blades sword, would have been better

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

They have stated it both ways, and contradicted themselves endlessly....
But my personal take is that when the next game comes out, they will turn around and say that the books aren't canon and that they have said so previously.

Umbra is to me a representation of TES not progressing, it shouldn't have been in Oblivion, and the fact the CC brought it back shouldn't have happened... Giving us some Dragonslaying artifacts, apart from one Blades sword, would have been better

Even if that's true, the books were considered canon at one point, an were written before Skyrim came out. As far as Skyrim is concerned, those books are canon to it.

There is no reason why Umbra couldn't have been in Cyrodill, it has changed hands repeatedly through history, it's not like some other Artifacts that have no plausible reason to change locations spontaneously, Umbra at least has wielders who could change locations as they wished, or more actually, as the sword wished since it eventually took control of the owner.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

They have stated it both ways, and contradicted themselves endlessly....
But my personal take is that when the next game comes out, they will turn around and say that the books aren't canon and that they have said so previously.

Umbra is to me a representation of TES not progressing, it shouldn't have been in Oblivion, and the fact the CC brought it back shouldn't have happened... Giving us some Dragonslaying artifacts, apart from one Blades sword, would have been better

Even if that's true,

It's true.... whether they change their minds again? Who knows...
They change their minds randomly.

[Fear2288]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

The sword was not created in Oblivon or by a deadric prince. Umbra was created by a mortal witch at the request of Clavicus Vile. He did give her a portion of his power for it, but she tricked him, and the power became it's own separate sentient entity, sort of like Barbas if I had to guess.

Once Vile had reacquired the Sword after the Hero of Kvatch gave it to him, the sword being it's own being, betrayed him, stole more of his power and tried to flee his realm, which it was eventually able to do. With some help, it tore a piece of Vile's realm away and created Umbriel, the floating city.

Vile obviously didn't let this go, in his weakened state, he made a deal with Attrebus Mede, (grandson of the Emperor in Skyrim) who retrieved and ultimately destroyed the sword, and Vile got all his power back.

So it is is unlike any other deadric artifact, and I do not think it can reconstitute itself like the others can, and even if it could, I think Clavicus Vile would be keeping a much closer eye on it, and never letting it leave his realm again.

There are a couple Daedric artifacts that were not entirely created in Oblivion, yet still cannot seem to be truly destroyed and exhibit the abilities mentioned.

Volendrung - for example - was an entirely normal hammer created by the Dwemer that Malacath decided to claim and imbue with his power.

This would seem to suggest that it really doesn’t matter if the artifact was created in Oblivion or not - as soon as a Daedric Prince gives their essence to it, it ceases to follow “the rules”.

There also seems to be a “theory” that the witch who initially created Umbra was in actuality Sheogorath in disguise.

If that’s true then Umbra was created by a Daedric Prince and contains the essence of both Sheo and Vile.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Fear2288:

There are a couple Daedric artifacts that were not entirely created in Oblivion, yet still cannot seem to be truly destroyed and exhibit the abilities mentioned.

Volendrung - for example - was an entirely normal hammer created by the Dwemer that Malacath decided to claim and imbue with his power.

This would seem to suggest that it really doesn’t matter if the artifact was created in Oblivion or not - as soon as a Daedric Prince gives their essence to it, it ceases to follow “the rules”.

There also seems to be a “theory” that the witch who initially created Umbra was in actuality Sheogorath in disguise.

If that’s true then Umbra was created by a Daedric Prince and contains the essence of both Sheo and Vile.

Was Volendrung ever destroyed though? I don't recall if that has happened before.

As for Sheo creating the sword, possible, though he probably wouldn't have needed Vile's energy to stabilize the sword if that were the case. Unless that was his plan all along. He is a prankster after all.

Even so, if the blade was not permanently destroyed, Clavicus Vile would likely keep it locked away forever, so no mortal, or the sword itself (should the entity remain) can ever use it's power against him.

[Elf On A Hook]

don't objects with hands of the gods involved normally not destroyed but fade back into the ether and after enough time and healing to it pop back up in mundus/ or realm once again , be it 100 yrs or millinia ect. even if not an artifact doesnt just having the power imbued give arise tofact it may or may not be a slippery slope at best lore wise . given many artifacts once the get power of a god couldnt they themselves slip past the realm of reason given they could fortell them being overtaken back and sorta hide a spell or bit elsewhere to escape( just my thoughts not neccasarily tes reslated the end part . i mean like if i was an object gained wisdom/power of god then given reasoning sorta from said knowledge , knowning im not the god or as powerful would assume id be taken back with in thier body/control and would want to leave a gateway or way to survive after i was taken back over be it imbueing a lil of myself elsewhere to slip through the cracks of reasoning yes like Viles pup in skyrim. also

Originally posted by Fear2288:

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

The sword was not created in Oblivon or by a deadric prince. Umbra was created by a mortal witch at the request of Clavicus Vile. He did give her a portion of his power for it, but she tricked him, and the power became it's own separate sentient entity, sort of like Barbas if I had to guess.

Once Vile had reacquired the Sword after the Hero of Kvatch gave it to him, the sword being it's own being, betrayed him, stole more of his power and tried to flee his realm, which it was eventually able to do. With some help, it tore a piece of Vile's realm away and created Umbriel, the floating city.

Vile obviously didn't let this go, in his weakened state, he made a deal with Attrebus Mede, (grandson of the Emperor in Skyrim) who retrieved and ultimately destroyed the sword, and Vile got all his power back.

So it is is unlike any other deadric artifact, and I do not think it can reconstitute itself like the others can, and even if it could, I think Clavicus Vile would be keeping a much closer eye on it, and never letting it leave his realm again.

There are a couple Daedric artifacts that were not entirely created in Oblivion, yet still cannot seem to be truly destroyed and exhibit the abilities mentioned.

Volendrung - for example - was an entirely normal hammer created by the Dwemer that Malacath decided to claim and imbue with his power.

This would seem to suggest that it really doesn’t matter if the artifact was created in Oblivion or not - as soon as a Daedric Prince gives their essence to it, it ceases to follow “the rules”.

There also seems to be a “theory” that the witch who initially created Umbra was in actuality Sheogorath in disguise.

If that’s true then Umbra was created by a Daedric Prince and contains the essence of both Sheo and Vile.

also made great point in if it was Shea isnt he known to have multiple personailities and always puttering around to mess with others be it gods or mortals. i could totally see him stealing a piece of Viles power to make it a Shea's butler to jaunt around the ether and mundas on a vacation and enjoing fact he has tiny bit of power over what was piece of VIle . idk makes me laughing thinking this . i can see him with lots of friends/butlers/followers from other gods and throughing a mad tea party and goign down that wormhole sorta adventure . like Sam and Sanguine sorta stuff

[Von Faustien]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

They also sometimes say some of the books are canon, just to confuse you, but later contradict themselves saying "no they aren't" (literally what was said at the beginning of one of their posts).

the lore also flat out has parallel universes, none linear time where mutiple contradictory events happen at once, actual time travel and gods actively re-righting reality on whime. canon doesnt really matter given all the crap that can just change basic aspects of the world