xEdit Check Errors Function No Longer Reliable For Error Checking

[smr1957]

As xEdit stands now, the Check for Errors function does not report certain errors. Yes, xEdit does its basic functions of editing records as it should - but if you use the check errors functions it returns no errors even when a mod abounds in them (this has been confirmed by other independent reliable sources). The excuses given by the developers are unacceptable. There is NO excuse for this - none whatsoever, and no one should even try to excuse this. Just to illustrate, here are pics. The first is using the check for errors in xEdit 4.02 (the current version, 4.03b returns the same result):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2199113187
Good to go - right? WRONG! And you would be seriously wrong. See the same mods checked in xEdit version 3.2:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2199115054
As can be seen, there are, in actuality, a large number of errors - the errors being deleted references which MUST be cleaned (as opposed to ITMs - Identical To Masters, which should not be cleaned unless it is confirmed that it is safe to do so by the mod author or someone who knows ABSOLUTELY it is safe - simply saying "oh well, most mod authors today know what they are doing so it is safe to clean" is NOT valid and certainly not to be taken as good advice - regardless of who gives it).

Now errors not showing in the new version of xEdit may be due to the switch to the autoclean function - in itself a bad idea for the reason in parentheses above - but it is inexcusable and cannot and should not be defended by anyone - there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for the poor design change - a change that can lead to people breaking their game through not knowing that there are issues - issues which xEdit should be warning them about when they use the check for errors option and which in the past, like many other features now discarded or dumbed down, were present; features that made xEdit the premier modding tool, which now it is not - at least not when compared to its previous version

I would strongly advise individuals to use xEdit version 3 series (I use v3.2) for checking for errors and for cleaning those errors - xEdit 4 series, as of now, CANNOT be relied upon to do those features, and do them correctly. This is based upon my personal experience using xEdit for my builds - and everyone here knows how extensive my experience and expertise is in both those areas.

Let me emphasize - xEdit is still good for editing, it is just of absolutely no use in checking for errors, and should not be used for either checking for errors or cleaning.

NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO BOTH FORM 43 MODS AND FORM 44 MODS, WHETHER PORTED OR MADE FOR SSE.

For xEdit 3.2, see here:
https://github.com/TES5Edit/TES5Edit/releases/tag/xedit-3.2.2

scroll to bottom of page and click this:
SSEEdit_3_2_2.zip 5.32 MB

This is easily reproducible. Anyone who wishes can test for themselves. These are the two mods in the screenshots. One is a mod made for Oldrim and in the previous version of CK. The other is a mod made for SSE and is a new mod.
Ani's Atelier - https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/80936
(Oldrim mod - whatever version of the CK was current in February '17)

Beggar's Row - https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/37392
(SSE mod - just released June 17, '20)

Check in version 4.03 or v4.03 of xEdit - you will see no errors reported.
Check in version 3.2 of xEdit - you will see deleted references being reported - for both of these mods. And these are NOT false positives.

And you can also check any other mods that you may know to have errors and compare the results.

[cfs111]

Yea, but with the deleted filter option Steve's issue is a moot point. A couple of extra clicks of the mouse does what he wants.

[smr1957]

cfs111 eredeti hozzászólása:

Yea, but with the deleted filter option Steve's issue is a moot point. A couple of extra clicks of the mouse does what he wants.

The issue is not my issue. I catch things that all others miss - hence a build of over 1500 mods and 1100 plugins (which this time around will be 1800 and 1400 respectively) that is completely stable and CTD free.

The issue is one for the average modder - the vast majority of whom have probably never even seen that option box, wouldn't know what to check if they did, and once checked, would be totally at a loss as to what to do regarding all the records anyway. It is those for whom we should be concerned - who just want to run one thing to see if there is anything needed to be done and then do what is needed as instructed - not for someone like myself who is closing in on 7000 hours in xEdit and who has never had to ask a question of anyone regarding anything about the game or how to mod it at anytime whatsoever. If I was only concerned about what I could do or handle - I would never have made this thread at all - nor any of the others I have made over the years.

And, frankly, as to saying something is not an error if the end result is failure. An extreme example. Challenger exploded 73 seconds into its launch. There were absolutely NO errors with any of the launch systems - all indications were go. Oh, the O-ring failed - well, that was not a system error - they just should not have launched when they did due to the cold - nothing wrong with the system at all. But it was one damn big malfunction. And because of that, things and procedures were instituted that would prevent that from occurring again - because, even though you may say that all systems are go and that there is nothing wrong - people still are involved, and people will will make mistakes.

Just because something is not technically an error, does not mean that it should go unreported - and in a manner that is clearly evident to the vast majority of users

[cfs111]

cfs111 eredeti hozzászólása:

Yea, actually me too. Still gonna say all deleted records should be UDR'ed whether it matters or not. Actually just added a mod to the list of mods to clean in my guide that had a deleted record with NAME-Base populated. Quickautoclean fixed it even though it is technically not an error.

Agreed.

[cfs111]

And while we are on the subject of errors...handy new xEdit script
SSEEdit Script - Check for ESL CELL Bug
https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/39335

[smr1957]

But you can't clean what you don't know needs to be cleaned. And most people click that check for errors and expect to be told if something is needed to be done.. Seeing nothing, they clean nothing.

[smr1957]

cfs111 eredeti hozzászólása:

And while we are on the subject of errors...handy new xEdit script
SSEEdit Script - Check for ESL CELL Bug
https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/39335

Good move - now why don't they just reintroduce that scrip from old xEdit versions that reported UDRs (which is what Deleted References are called after they are undeleted) and call it something like Check for Errors - Even If They Are Not

[cfs111]

Simply filter for deleted it does exactly that.

[cfs111]

There is also a filter for ITM.

[cfs111]

Here is the filter setup to show udr and itm
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2202026892

[cfs111]

Actually that is wrong, ITM needs to be unchecked.

[cfs111]

Dang, that Anis_Atelier mod you had a reference has deleted navmeshes

[Kaos™]

I think you'd be surprised by just how many people that mod games have never heard of or never used xEdit, of the 2 groups of people (those who use xEdit and those who do not/have never heard of it) the latter group is vastly larger than the former, let's be honest if you are a long time gamer and mod user chances are you know your way around xEdit, the greenhorns (new mod users) either have not heard of xEdit or do not know what it is, what it does or even how to use it for simple functions.

I'd wager that less than 15% of the entire mod user population even know what this check for errors option is let alone what it is supposed to do, although this percentage may be even higher than we expect it to be.

Ironically the problem is sometimes mod authors, as some have quite clearly stated the the deleted navmeshes are perfectly safe, now I'm not an expert but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that those are way more dangerous than this issue right here. Just my 2 cents is all.

[AL]

I haven't been using xEdit in a while, I was familiar with the old tutorials on applying filters for cleaning by Gamer Poets.

When I tested out 4.x I found that that those functions were deprecated and the program invited me to instead use QAC and to check the documentation[tes5edit.github.io]. I went there and found various ways to run QUC, as well as Quick Clean, where the changes aren't saved automatically and you can overview them.

The documentation seems well curated and I saw a lot of effort being put in that. xEdit has undergone a lot of changes since Elminster came back, programs evolve so I had to adapt what I knew about how to use it.

It seems to me that the changes he made were all deliberate and had concerns as to simplify the process for those more casual users that just want to clean mods. The documentation addresses this quite well I would say.

If I want to know how I'm supposed to use the new version of xEdit then I check the docs or, if I'm still confused, go ask on their support discord. For advanced users there are still options and command line parameters to get xEdit to do exactly what you want, but otherwise it sounds to me that effort was put in to simplify the usage for the more casual modders.

This just happens to be different from before where I was used to applying filters for cleaning, but I learned easily enough.

If I was a mod author looking to use xEdit to make sure my plugin was good, I would probably have a good read of the docs to see what I'm supposed to do, especially after seeing that there were changes since last I used it. That at least would be my approach as a new author.

[smr1957]

Frankly, this is no longer an issue in my mind. I will be recommending in all pinned topics of mine that people who wish to check for errors download and use xEdit v 3.2. Autoclean is not an option as it cleans ITMs, which should NOT be cleaned unless it is specifically indicated by the mod author. UDRs - or deleted Reference - whatever a person may call them should ALWAYS be cleaned, and the quickest and least troublesome way of identifying them should also always be used, and a tool that cleans ONLY them is the tool that should be used - xEdit version 3.2 is the tool that provides this, xEdit series 4 does not. Frankly, if I find another editing tool,that does the job of actual editing as well as xEdit, and whose makers do not wish to impose their own decisions upon those who use it but instead make the tool that is desired by those who will be using it, I will recommend that alternative tool be used in xEdit's stead.

Modding and creating a build is like painting and creating a work of art. The build is the artwork and there are various tools that can be used by the build creator to achieve the artwork that they set out to create. The artist - in this case the person creating the build - is the one who tells the toolmaker what is needed. The toolmaker does not dictate to the artist. For all their knowledge and talent, for all the combined knowledge and talent of those who create the tools - whether they be Tannin, the Vortex team, the Mod Organizer 2 team, Elminster and the xEdit team, or the LOOT team - they are nothing more then the tool makers - and they should NOT be dictating to the artists - the build creators, the people modding their game - what should or should not be used in the creation of that artwork.

Personally my thousand mod builds are works of art. There is probably no one in the world who is better at creating a build than I, and only maybe one or two other as good as myself - ff7legend being another in the same class and an equal. I know what is needed to achieve my builds - just as Picasso, or Van Gogh, or Rembrant knew what was needed to achieve their creations. And for all painters who set out to create their own work of art - whether it be the humblest little drawing or a grand panorama of epic proportions, the question is - are you going to listen to the guy who makes the brushes, or Picasso, Rembrant, Van Gogh?
In that vein, perhaps a little story is in order.

[smr1957]

Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel - The True Story


We all know about that glorious work of art, the Sistine Chapel, and how Michelangelo labored for four years to complete it, during which time he suffered many interruptions....

- snip -

....The moral of the story being, a person may make the best tools there are, but they're still nothing but the damn toolmaker. It's the artist who actually creates the art.



c Steven Ross