Do the Thalmor want an independent Skyrim?

[Kestrel]

I'm doing a Stormcloak playthrough, and honestly all I can think about is how it probably plays into what the Thalmor want. They obviously want to weaken and destabilize the Empire; the Civil War helps with that, sure, but Skyrim's actual independence from them would be even better for this goal. Not only would they have wasted resources on fighting the war in the first place, but their borders would decrease. I mean, it's kind of like Hammerfell 2. The Thalmor get permission to do things the province isn't okay with and they secede from the Empire (or try to).

[SpeedFreak1972]

No what the thalmor want is dominance the thalmor don't want any side to win just an unending war to keep both sides busy and weaken the empire.

[Alex]

Originally posted by Kestrel:

I'm doing a Stormcloak playthrough, and honestly all I can think about is how it probably plays into what the Thalmor want.

How does it feel to be the sword fodder for Ulfric's ambitions?

Originally posted by Kestrel:

They obviously want to weaken and destabilize the Empire; the Civil War helps with that,

Hence, the Thalmor would want to prolong the war indefinitely.

Originally posted by Kestrel:

but Skyrim's actual independence from them would be even better for this goal.

Actually, no.
1. Skyrim could found a new Empire, as they did in the past. They even have a Dragonborn to found a new dynasty. Many consider Titus Mede II as illegitimate precisely because he lacks this divine mandate. I'd wager that some legions may switch sides in case Skyrim were to come for the Ruby Throne.
2. An independent Skyrim would become the refuge for Talos worshippers from the Empire. Not only would this bolster Skyrim's ranks, it would also remove a crucial thorn in the Empire's side.
3. Furthermore, Talos worship from an entire province will certainly hinder the Thalmor's methaphysical goals.

[Ihateeverybody]

Originally posted by Alex:

3. Furthermore, Talos worship from an entire province will certainly hinder the Thalmor's methaphysical goals.

I would actually love to see them achieve their goal. I want to be there when they discover their Parents rented out their room (TO THE DWEMER).

♥♥♥♥, did I just spoil ES6?

[Valden21]

I honestly don't think the Thalmor want an independent Skyrim, as it's bad for their long-term plans. The game goes out of its way to show that the Thalmor are an oppressive regime, and the one thing that oppressive regimes need, above all else, is someone whom they can blame. For the Thalmor, Talos-worshippers and the Stormcloaks fill that role. If the war ends, the Thalmor won't be able to use them for that anymore.

[Perception312]

It's spelled out in the documents you get in the Thalmor embassy that the Thalmor neither want an Imperial victory nor a Stormcloak victory. Therefore, picking a side and ending the war is better than not taking a side. Siding with the empire is arguably better, especially for a non-Nord PC, so that the empire will be unified when the next war with the Thalmor begins. Talos worshipers can practice civil disobedience until then, as they should have from the start.

[Kestrel]

Originally posted by Alex:

Originally posted by Kestrel:

I'm doing a Stormcloak playthrough, and honestly all I can think about is how it probably plays into what the Thalmor want.

How does it feel to be the sword fodder for Ulfric's ambitions?

Originally posted by Kestrel:

They obviously want to weaken and destabilize the Empire; the Civil War helps with that,

Hence, the Thalmor would want to prolong the war indefinitely.

Originally posted by Kestrel:

but Skyrim's actual independence from them would be even better for this goal.

Actually, no.
1. Skyrim could found a new Empire, as they did in the past. They even have a Dragonborn to found a new dynasty. Many consider Titus Mede II as illegitimate precisely because he lacks this divine mandate. I'd wager that some legions may switch sides in case Skyrim were to come for the Ruby Throne.
2. An independent Skyrim would become the refuge for Talos worshippers from the Empire. Not only would this bolster Skyrim's ranks, it would also remove a crucial thorn in the Empire's side.
3. Furthermore, Talos worship from an entire province will certainly hinder the Thalmor's methaphysical goals.

This does make sense actually; though in the case of who they'd want to ultimately win if it had to come to that, I still don't understand why an Imperial victory could be better than a Stormcloak one, even with the conditions you describe. If Skyrim were to actually 'come for the Ruby Throne', would this situation not work in the Thalmor's favor by weakening the Empire even more? Especially if it lasts in another long-term war that weakens both sides, which is what the Thalmor wanted in Skyrim, right?

If Skyrim actually wins that scenario, this would definitely put the Dominion and Thalmor in a precarious position as far as their goals go, but at the same time much of Skyrim's resources would have just been spent fighting for the throne; they wouldn't immediately be in a position to deal with the Dominion. Plus, the Dominion/Thalmor would have plenty of time to bolster their forces or do something in that period, even if they're not directly involved in the fighting. Or are there reasons I'm missing for why this is not a risk worth taking?

Even if that war doesn't happen in that scenario and it's just legions switching to the new Empire because of the Dragonborn's claim from being dragonborn, that's still going to result in an Empire split in two that's probably on the verge of conflict 24/7.

I'm not a lore buff so I'm genuinely curious on what the best outcome for the Thalmor would be (as far as who wins the war goes).

Could they be benefiting from an Imperial victory too?

As for the Talos issue, are Talos worshippers really that common/prevalent in universe? I'm sure many of them would come to Skyrim and likely bolster their forces, but even then, are there really that many? I mean he is only one of nine divines, and a controversial one who isn't always included as an actual divine (although I suppose it is mainly only the Altmer who want to exclude him in the first place).

[Halliwax]

It is explicitly stated that they see their strategic interest is prolonging the war as long as possible. However, they can't expect to prolong it forever, and certainly they would have a preference as to who the ultimate victor is. I think that choice would clearly be Skyrim's independence. It's classic divide & conquer tactics.

When it comes to Talos, I find it hard to believe that they really care, at least not that anyone in authority cares. That demand was a carefully chosen wedge to drive the Empire and Skyrim apart. The imperial leadership recognized this, which is why they tried to smooth things over by bribing the jarls.

[Heimdall313]

The Thalmor instigating, arming, and enflaming wars inside foreign enemy territory has many real-life parallels, all of which will get me banned again if I name one. Its a.. proxy war, I'm probably still allowed to use that one.
So anyway, the point is just to cause casualties and deplete supplies on both sides, Thalmor want them both sides broken and exhausted so they can conquer both. It's breaking key allies apart.

Ulfric has legitimate grievances, the war would not have happened without the Thalmor. Either side winning is bad for the Thalmor; it means an end to bloodshed and resource drains. Stormcloak victory is probably worse for the Thalmor, since it would create an independent state that is not bound to the Concordat, and has really no animosity towards say, Hammerfell, who is still at war with the Thalmor, and might, say, be willing to supply men and arms to Hammerfell, perhaps even formally join their defensive war, and make a very bad situation for the Thalmor.
The Empire winning means it can rebuild its legions and recruit Nords, who have "historically" (game lore) been a core of their fighting forces, and need literally zero propaganda to fight Elves.

[Perception312]

I just found out about a note that appears in one of the forts if you capture it while fighting for the Stormcloaks. It basically says that Imperial forces are amassing in the south in preparation to retake Skyrim. So the civil war will not really end if the player sides with the Stormcloaks. It just convinces the emperor to send real forces instead of recruiting locally.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Perception312:

I just found out about a note that appears in one of the forts if you capture it while fighting for the Stormcloaks. It basically says that Imperial forces are amassing in the south in preparation to retake Skyrim. So the civil war will not really end if the player sides with the Stormcloaks. It just convinces the emperor to send real forces instead of recruiting locally.

If Ulfric wins before that happens it will be too late. Once his is placed on the Throne as High King Skyrim will be United. He also has the loyalty of the Dragonborn, who is a one man army. If the Empire were to try to take on a United Skyrim backed by the Dragonborn they would lose.

[Ihateeverybody]

If Dragonborns were invincible why did Tiber Septim Need Omega Supreme?

And no grouping of anyone is EVER united. EVER.

Tiber Septim Founded an empire in name only, Internal Factions are always in play.

Sorry....Sorry. Continue with your fantasy that all problems go away once someone sits in a chair.

[Fear2288]

Originally posted by Halliwax:

It is explicitly stated that they see their strategic interest is prolonging the war as long as possible. However, they can't expect to prolong it forever, and certainly they would have a preference as to who the ultimate victor is. I think that choice would clearly be Skyrim's independence. It's classic divide & conquer tactics.

When it comes to Talos, I find it hard to believe that they really care, at least not that anyone in authority cares. That demand was a carefully chosen wedge to drive the Empire and Skyrim apart. The imperial leadership recognized this, which is why they tried to smooth things over by bribing the jarls.

They actually DO care.

The Altmer in general see themselves as made in the image of the Aedra and the Aedra’s most beloved creations. In their minds they are the SUPERIOR RACE.

Tiber Septim then came along and tally-whacked the Second Aldmeri Dominion, forged The Empire of Man, and unleashed the Numidium on the Summerset Isles.

Then he supposedly ascended to godhood and stands shoulder-to-shoulder alongside the likes of Magnus, Phynaster, and the other Aedra.

A man - not mer - kicked the snot out of the Altmer and “subjugated” them into being a part of THE EMPIRE OF MAN, and now he’s supposed to be revered as a god.

The Altmer in general never respected Talos’ divinity and few - if any - of them worshipped him. The Thalmor specifically see Talos’ divinity as an insult to their race/culture and a heresy of the highest degree that needs to be “corrected”.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

If Dragonborns were invincible why did Tiber Septim Need Omega Supreme?

And no grouping of anyone is EVER united. EVER.

Tiber Septim Founded an empire in name only, Internal Factions are always in play.

Sorry....Sorry. Continue with your fantasy that all problems go away once someone sits in a chair.

It not clear the Type of Dragonborn the Septim line was and the Player are the same thing, but it is clear how strong the player is. The Septim line never had the chance to find out, the only Dragon they knew about was an ally.

Maybe not totally, but the Jarls are Loyal to him, he installed half of them during the war, as the King he has access to their military forces. So at the very least their fighting force is unified.

I never said is solved the long term issues for Skyrim, but they do gain their Independence, and I don't think the Empire could do anything about it.

[Ihateeverybody]

Everybody needs to ♥♥♥♥. Everyone needs to sleep. No one is invincable. Not superman, not Sauron, Not Emperor Palpatine.

Even Bugs Bunny got his commupance in a few cartoons.

Edit: or to keep it in the same Lore Universe. ALDUIN was defeeted and Miraak was too. I heard tell of someone storming into Meruhn Dagons House, Kicking the door down and banishing him with his True Name. It was HERBERT.

[Ihateeverybody]

and I am telling you there is no unification. The absolute second a threat is removed. A new threat takes its place. People just don't forget that those individuals in Windhelm were killing their boys and girls.