Are the Thalmor just in their quest to removing Talos?

[StuckInWashingMachine]

Yeah I'm somewhat of a TES lore noob. I watch some lore videos, and read some of the skyrim books via the audio book mod on the nexus.
I know a little bit, and I know enough about religion in how there are like 5 million different afterlife when people die on nirn, and if someone is faithful to a certain respective god whether it be daedria or aedria they will ascend to their realm or even gain various blessings or magical benefits should they progress in this wacky universe where religion actually does have magical properties.
Skyrim doesn't really explore this, but to remove the worship of talos is to pretty much remove the promise of many people to go to a specific afterlife, I guess in this case soverignguard perhaps, or even to some extent remove talos' power completely.
My unlearned ass doesn't even know what he's the god of, i think it was government or something. Why the hell would the thalmor give a ♥♥♥♥ if he a god of anything. Worshiping a mortal? what does that have to do with them.

[Ilja]

This would require a long explanation, but I'll give you a very short one.

Mortal plane did not exist as it is. Lorkhan "tricked" divines to create it and thus robbed elven spirits their divinity, when mortal plane was created.

Lorkhan was killed for this act by Akatosh. However, it is not clear, if act was done in rage, or if Lorkhan volunteered himself to be cut down, due to his own ideas.

While Lorkhan was killed from the books of living divines, he is not fully dead. Nords know him as Shor and Sovengar is his domain in immortal plane.

Thalmor is an ultra religious section of high elves. They believe that elves should be divine beings and have no love for either mortals or mortal plane. They rose in power with traditional way: murdering opposition in Summerset and then proceeded to slaughter refugees who escaped on the continent. Their power remained questionable, until Oblivion crisis, where they managed to close several Oblivion gates and gather notable amount of influence around continent - especially among Khajiit.

They have held that power with purges among "lesser" elves (mostly Bosmer) and suppressing all opposition in Summerset Isles.

In their point of view, mortal plane and their mortal form is a prison. They blame Lorkhan for this and have no love for mortals who were created by his acts.

Lorkhan is a "dead" god of mortals. It is claimed that Talos rose to divinity and got his own domain in Immortal Plane, like other divines have. He isn't robbing souls in that regard. Talos rose as God of Men - which was a massive insult for Thalmor. They deny that any human could rise to divinity, because that would set them in par with supposed elven supremacy. Ands so they started plotting for a war, which would end Talos worship for good.

While many divines have multiply forms - for example Akatosh is as much elven god as god of mortals - they do not seem to care much about on going conflict. However, Talos shrines are functional and he wouldn't be the first one to rise in to some form of divinity, though he would be the first one to be granted a place among actual original divines.

That said, there is a story of Arkay, stating that he too was a mortal man once, before being raised in to divinity. Thalmor have denied this and consider hims as one of original divines, who has placed himself as apologist of men.

[Rez Elwin]

The Thalmor don't like Talos being conspired a God beauase he was a Man once. The Thalmor look down on Humans, well everyone with isn't a High elf really, and refuse to believe a mere human could acsend to godhood.

Part of their superiority is they feel they are closer to to the gods than the other races, which isn't totally wrong, but Dark Elves are the same as them, but they also rejected the worship of Aedra in Favor of the deadra.

Is it just to remove the worship of a God? No. not only is their reason total BS it's religious oppression no matter how you look at it. That's never a good thing.

I do not belive that banning Talos Worship prevents one from going to Sovenguard, but that aspect is not explored. When the player travels to Sovernguard you can meet a few people, but known Worshippers of Talos, like Kodlak and Ulfric both show up if they are dead. The thing is though, even though the Thalmor say it's banned it doesn't stop the Nords, it's one of the driving reasons behind the Civil War.

[Ilja]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

I do not belive that banning Talos Worship prevents one from going to Sovenguard, but that aspect is not explored. When the player travels to Sovernguard you can meet a few people, but known Worshippers of Talos, like Kodlak and Ulfric both show up if they are dead. The thing is though, even though the Thalmor say it's banned it doesn't stop the Nords, it's one of the driving reasons behind the Civil War.

Torygg also worship Talos and he can be seen in Sovengar.

I don't see any conflict there either. Shor is one of the original ones and Nords believe that their place is in his halls, if they fall in battle. It would make sense for Nords to appear there, unless they have especially made a deal with other deity, like Nocturnal, which would prevent them from entering in that specific afterlife.

So what will happen to those Talos worshipers who do not die in battle? If he is a real divine, then those Nords will travel to him, while those dying in battle will be claimed by Shor.

[Freeman]

Originally posted by Ilja:

That said, there is a story of Arkay, stating that he too was a mortal man once, before being raised in to divinity. Thalmor have denied this and consider hims as one of original divines, who has placed himself as apologist of men.

We have no idea what race Arkay was, could have been a Sload for all we know. And no, the Altmer don't worship him.

In short OP, (on top of the aforementioned preconception that humans are unable to become gods), Tiber Septim arrived with a giant unstoppable time bending robot god and used that to subjugate the Altmer and Summerset Isles, massacring countless Altmer in the process, thus the Altmer's hatred for Tiber Septim.

The more you read about him, the more you realize why the Altmer are right to denounce his status as a divine. I suggest reading The Real Barenziah or he Arcturian Heresy for starters.

[theyangman0]

The Thalmor believe their race to be the closest to the Divines while seeing humanity as people created from the weakest souls by Lorkhan to spread chaos into the world. They despise Talos because his rise to divinity goes against their core beliefs of Man being a product of evil. The god related to the Nords' afterlife is Shor (who the elves call Lorkhan), so removing Talos doesn't get rid of their afterlife. It's just that to the Nords, Tiber Septim's Ascension to Divinity is a personal victory to the Nords as he was a Man and debatably an Atmoran, who are the Nords' ancestral race (yes, I know there's a theory of him being Breton and of Talos being made up of more than one person, but that doesn't matter compared to the in-universe people's beliefs). So to them, to deny his rise to godhood and outlaw his worship is a huge slap in their face.

As for if they're just or not, I guess that depends. To the Elves, Mundus (aka the world) is a prison set by Lorkhan filled with suffering. They believe that the destruction of the Mortal plane and the armies of Lorkhan made to defend it (humans), will free them from this physical imprisonment and return them back to their original state. The Thalmor represent this to the extreme and thus want to stamp out the human race in time, with the eradication of Talos worship likely playing a major part in this objective. That's why when you do the College of Winterhold's questline, once Ancano realises what the Eye of Magnus can do, he sets to use it to undo life and Creation to bring about the Thalmor's goals now that a short cut has been discovered.

So if you're a person who wants the world to keep on existing, hate and oppose them with all your might.

[Eternie]

Imagine the murdered Talos worshippers as they approach Sovenguard, being put to the test at the entrance. Would they have to battle Tsun as we do?
How many Talos worshippers would Tsun have killed and rejected ?

[StuckInWashingMachine]

Originally posted by Ilja:

This would require a long explanation, but I'll give you a very short one.

Mortal plane did not exist as it is. Lorkhan "tricked" divines to create it and thus robbed elven spirits their divinity, when mortal plane was created.

Lorkhan was killed for this act by Akatosh. However, it is not clear, if act was done in rage, or if Lorkhan volunteered himself to be cut down, due to his own ideas.

While Lorkhan was killed from the books of living divines, he is not fully dead. Nords know him as Shor and Sovengar is his domain in immortal plane.

Thalmor is an ultra religious section of high elves. They believe that elves should be divine beings and have no love for either mortals or mortal plane. They rose in power with traditional way: murdering opposition in Summerset and then proceeded to slaughter refugees who escaped on the continent. Their power remained questionable, until Oblivion crisis, where they managed to close several Oblivion gates and gather notable amount of influence around continent - especially among Khajiit.

They have held that power with purges among "lesser" elves (mostly Bosmer) and suppressing all opposition in Summerset Isles.

In their point of view, mortal plane and their mortal form is a prison. They blame Lorkhan for this and have no love for mortals who were created by his acts.

Lorkhan is a "dead" god of mortals. It is claimed that Talos rose to divinity and got his own domain in Immortal Plane, like other divines have. He isn't robbing souls in that regard. Talos rose as God of Men - which was a massive insult for Thalmor. They deny that any human could rise to divinity, because that would set them in par with supposed elven supremacy. Ands so they started plotting for a war, which would end Talos worship for good.

While many divines have multiply forms - for example Akatosh is as much elven god as god of mortals - they do not seem to care much about on going conflict. However, Talos shrines are functional and he wouldn't be the first one to rise in to some form of divinity, though he would be the first one to be granted a place among actual original divines.

That said, there is a story of Arkay, stating that he too was a mortal man once, before being raised in to divinity. Thalmor have denied this and consider hims as one of original divines, who has placed himself as apologist of men.

This is probably the best most well put together explanation for something that could of gone in a million different directions. I appreciate the effort on educating me a woeful random on the TES universe.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by Eternie:

Imagine the murdered Talos worshippers as they approach Sovenguard, being put to the test at the entrance. Would they have to battle Tsun as we do?
How many Talos worshippers would Tsun have killed and rejected ?

That fight is more of a test of worth than a death battle, Tsun isn't trying to kill you, he simply needs to test if you're worthy to enter. It might also be based on how you actually get there, you didn't fall valiantly in battle, you took a shortcut.

[Von Faustien]

on the topic of shrine blessings Dunmer saints have working shrines blessings and all and arent gods meaning as far as determining godhood its pretty meaningless.

that said Talos is a god and the idea he was ever a normal man is kind of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ given he's a mix of three diffrent mortal incarnations of shor and thus was part of a god even before he became a god

also the elf view that mundus is a prison is pretty much just the Altmer.

the orcs, Dunmer and Dwemer viwed it as a test to hone themselves and improve

the wood elves fall firmly in the camp with the humans and Khajjit that its a gift and blessing

hell id wager most thalmor proably dont know the actual end game is unmake mundus its likely just the upper ranks with most thinking its just normal racial supremacy

[theo]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

Is it just to remove the worship of a God? No. not only is their reason total BS it's religious oppression no matter how you look at it. That's never a good thing.

Agreed, Mehrunes Dagon cults should've been allowed prior to Oblivion crisis.

Can anyone remind me the source, where Thalmor goals to destroy the world are mentioned in game?

[Von Faustien]

Originally posted by theo:

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

Is it just to remove the worship of a God? No. not only is their reason total BS it's religious oppression no matter how you look at it. That's never a good thing.

Agreed, Mehrunes Dagon cults should've been allowed prior to Oblivion crisis.

Can anyone remind me the source, where Thalmor goals to destroy the world are mentioned in game?

Delphine off handedly mentions them wanting the world to end on there terms not Alduins, the college of winterhold quest literately has one try and do it via the eye of magnus and its brought up in one of the in game lore fluff books though i cant rember which one.

Dagons also got a half dozen stunts before the oblvion crisis that would warrant a ban

[Knightmage Bael]

Originally posted by Ilja:

This would require a long explanation, but I'll give you a very short one.

Mortal plane did not exist as it is. Lorkhan "tricked" divines to create it and thus robbed elven spirits their divinity, when mortal plane was created.

Lorkhan was killed for this act by Akatosh. However, it is not clear, if act was done in rage, or if Lorkhan volunteered himself to be cut down, due to his own ideas.

While Lorkhan was killed from the books of living divines, he is not fully dead. Nords know him as Shor and Sovengar is his domain in immortal plane.

Thalmor is an ultra religious section of high elves. They believe that elves should be divine beings and have no love for either mortals or mortal plane. They rose in power with traditional way: murdering opposition in Summerset and then proceeded to slaughter refugees who escaped on the continent. Their power remained questionable, until Oblivion crisis, where they managed to close several Oblivion gates and gather notable amount of influence around continent - especially among Khajiit.

They have held that power with purges among "lesser" elves (mostly Bosmer) and suppressing all opposition in Summerset Isles.

In their point of view, mortal plane and their mortal form is a prison. They blame Lorkhan for this and have no love for mortals who were created by his acts.

Lorkhan is a "dead" god of mortals. It is claimed that Talos rose to divinity and got his own domain in Immortal Plane, like other divines have. He isn't robbing souls in that regard. Talos rose as God of Men - which was a massive insult for Thalmor. They deny that any human could rise to divinity, because that would set them in par with supposed elven supremacy. Ands so they started plotting for a war, which would end Talos worship for good.

While many divines have multiply forms - for example Akatosh is as much elven god as god of mortals - they do not seem to care much about on going conflict. However, Talos shrines are functional and he wouldn't be the first one to rise in to some form of divinity, though he would be the first one to be granted a place among actual original divines.

That said, there is a story of Arkay, stating that he too was a mortal man once, before being raised in to divinity. Thalmor have denied this and consider hims as one of original divines, who has placed himself as apologist of men.

This is a good precursor explanation to the Aldmeri's ultimate goal, actually.

Talos rose to divinity. The Thalmor want to un-make his divine status, and return the elves to their original status in relation to divine beings. This, essentially, would unmake the world, and "lesser beings". Their ultimate goal here isn't really stated in-game, its mentioned in commentaries, interviews, and other sources.

It is the ultimate goal of the Thalmor, but I think it requires an even deeper explanation, and would confuse too many people.

[Ilja]

Originally posted by Freeman:

Originally posted by Ilja:

That said, there is a story of Arkay, stating that he too was a mortal man once, before being raised in to divinity. Thalmor have denied this and consider hims as one of original divines, who has placed himself as apologist of men.

We have no idea what race Arkay was, could have been a Sload for all we know. And no, the Altmer don't worship him.

They worship him as Xarxses, just like they worship Akatosh as Auri-El. They are considered as same divines, despite of their different profiles among races.

Mara is the only divine, who is equally recognized as same divine among human and elven races. She is also the one who allegedly gave Arkay his divinity and raised him as eight divine.

And yes: it is true that Arkay's original race (if he wasn't among first divines) has not bee properly established. He is simply stated as being mortal shopkeeper. Thalmor naturally deny the whole story, considering Arkay as some form of human apologist spirit, or human apologist side of Xarxes.

In any case, Arkay and Mara seem to have some deep connection. Arkay's descriptions have been associated with both Mara's and Morwha's worship. Either Mara actually raised him in to divinity, or they have some other form of deeper connection as divines, because their worship goes hand in hand.

TES lore among divines is not exactly coherent. Divines take many forms and are served under different names, with entirely different traditions. Lorkhan has 6 other names and traditional name of Arkay among Nords was Orkey.

[Eternie]

For me the weird thing with the divines that are the accepted now. Is like the variation between Kyne and Kynerath .. where St Alessia in driving the Ayleids out of Cyrodiil she changed the Nord and Elven pantheons to incorporate similarities. But what is the truth.

Such that we don't follow either Nord nor Elven divines plus we include Talos.
Certainly loved the prophet in Oblivion telling us that having a raised Talos and now having 9 divines to rule us.

[Freeman]

Originally posted by Ilja:

Originally posted by Freeman:

We have no idea what race Arkay was, could have been a Sload for all we know. And no, the Altmer don't worship him.

They worship him as Xarxses, just like they worship Akatosh as Auri-El. They are considered as same divines, despite of their different profiles among races.

Mara is the only divine, who is equally recognized as same divine among human and elven races. She is also the one who allegedly gave Arkay his divinity and raised him as eight divine.

And yes: it is true that Arkay's original race (if he wasn't among first divines) has not bee properly established. He is simply stated as being mortal shopkeeper. Thalmor naturally deny the whole story, considering Arkay as some form of human apologist spirit, or human apologist side of Xarxes.

In any case, Arkay and Mara seem to have some deep connection. Arkay's descriptions have been associated with both Mara's and Morwha's worship. Either Mara actually raised him in to divinity, or they have some other form of deeper connection as divines, because their worship goes hand in hand.

TES lore among divines is not exactly coherent. Divines take many forms and are served under different names, with entirely different traditions. Lorkhan has 6 other names and traditional name of Arkay among Nords was Orkey.

Xarxes and Arkay are two completely different divines, though.

Xarxes is the god of secrets and hidden knowledge, and acted as Auriel's scribe in life. Arkay on the other hand is the god of life, death and the season. Sure, Xarxes is often equated with Arkay, but that doesn't really make them the same god. This is not an Auriel/Akatosh kind of situation.

Sure, Xarxes kind of(?) acts as a god of death due to the whole Aldmeriad thing, but that's not him primary domain.

Kind of the only similarities between the two is that both have a connection to Auriel/Akatosh, and they were both mortals who achieved apotheosis, but that could be said for a majority of the Aldmeri pantheon. They two of them have similarities, but that doesn't make them the same god.

Stendarr is the apologist of man, not Xarxes, so no, Mara isn't the only divine that has a place in both man and mer pantheon. Not to mention that the Bretons also worship Syrabane, Phynaster, Y'frre, and Magnus, who're all Aldmeri deities.