Is there any reason to side with Ulfric at all?

[Raymond]

Ulfric Stormcloak:
-Literally a brainwashed Thalmor spy sent to destabilize the Empire
-His whole reasoning to rebel against the Empire is because he is tougher than Torigg? How is his muscle gonna help anybody?
-So bad at ruling his own home town has an entire slum, with nobles bullying everyone living in it.
-Got arse handed by the Empire and still think he can take on the Dominion.
-Talos is not even a real god.
Imperial:
-Actually prioritize their citizen's well-being.
-Torigg faced a superior opponent in battle fully aware he was going to die.
-Torigg actually understood the reasoning behind the White-Gold Concordat.
-Talos is not even a real god.

[Senor Cinco]

Escrito originalmente por felmari:

Escrito originalmente por Señor Cinco:

I must heavily, and not a little... a lot, roleplay a character that is blindly obedient to the Empire, to not side with Ulfric.

It's not about supporting Ulfric. It's about sharing a common enemy. The PC was about to be executed, for crying out loud. It's difficult to get past that. The romance is over, at that point.

it is also about looking at the big picture. what one thinks is best for the area or directing possible outcomes whether it is best or not.

There isn't a picture big enough for one of my average characters (for lack of a better word), that includes them and the Empire.

[Ihateeverybody]

*whistle*

Nope nothing new here.

*la la la*

[Raymond]

Escrito originalmente por Live, Laugh, Love-Craft:

The Nords have a valid reason to rebel, Ulfric didn't just wake up one day and choose totally at random to kill the high-king and half of Skyrim just willingly went along with it for the memes.

It's ironic because that's exactly what Ulfric did tho. He declared a duel with Torygg out of blue, shouted the king to death and started the rebellion. He didn't even ask or know what Torygg's stance on the White Gold concordat and the Talos ban. He didn't even make appeal to the High King to lift the ban or attempt any peaceful solution and went straight to start a civil war. Basically Ulfric just want to be High King.

[Ilja]

Well, Ulfric actually did knew Torygg's stance.

He knew that Torygg had kept Thalmor in check and kept Inquisition in bay, until Ulfric started agitating it and - as Thalmor using him expected - gave Inquisition legal reigns in Skyim.

He also knew that Torygg worship Talos and that he would have make a stand against the ban, if Jarls of Skyrim would have stood with him. They didn't, because there was no reason for them to get agitated over something that Torygg had held in check to begin with.

Background notes tell that Torygg admired Ulfic. It would have been easy enough for charismatic jarl to manipulate Torygg at his side.

Which brings us the same conclusion: Ulfric didn't only want Skyrim to separate from the Empire. He wanted to be the High King who separate Nords from the Empire they helped to create.

[SpeedFreak1972]

More than that Sybille Stentor says when asked that if Ullfric just asked Torygg he probably just goes along with a declaration of independence ..... but that would mean Ullfric wouldn't be the high king

[Volfogg]

Tbh, I see Ulfric more as a tragic villain. After this whole Thalmor torture, he just snapped and went to make an "example" from a man that admired him. It's presents you with sadistic choice. Win for him, which is not something Thalmor expects, but many good people will suffer, or defeat him, but that leaves Thalmor with more room for plotting against Empire-united Skyrim. On a side note, both Torygg and Ulfric can be met in Sovngarde. One can imagine how many amends the latter is gonna make to the former after this battle with Alduin.

BTW, It kinda tugs the heartstrings, when Rikke sometimes between missions goes: "Ulfric, my old friend. What have you done?"

[Raymond]

Escrito originalmente por Volfogg:

Tbh, I see Ulfric more as a tragic villain. After this whole Thalmor torture, he just snapped and went to make an "example" from a man that admired him. It's presents you with sadistic choice. Win for him, which is not something Thalmor expects, but many good people will suffer, or defeat him, but that leaves Thalmor with more room for plotting against Empire-united Skyrim. On a side note, both Torygg and Ulfric can be met in Sovngarde. One can imagine how many amends the latter is gonna make to the former after this battle with Alduin.

BTW, It kinda tugs the heartstrings, when Rikke sometimes between missions goes. "Ulfric, my old friend. What have you done?"

actually the Thalmor's real interest in the civil war is prolonging the war as long as possible, or at least the Empire doesn't win. The Empire winning the civil war is literally the worse possible outcome for the Thalmor, as stated by Elenwen. Ulfric didn't really give any ♥♥♥♥ about Torygg tho. When you ask Ulfric why he would just say he did just to prove himself.

If you think about, there is absolutely no legitimate reason for Ulfric to start a rebellion. He wants to stop the Talos ban? He killed the only guy who could have stopped the ban without bloodshed among Nords. He rebelled because Nords become weak with Imperial milks? that's not even a bad thing that just meant the Empire did a good job taking care of their Nordic citizens. Plus milk make you physically stronger and alcohol have real life history of being used by dictators and monarchs to control their peasants/slaves. He rebelled because the Empire is working with the Thalmor? well the Thalmor didn't show up until his rebellion started and it turned out he was the one who brought the Thalmor to Skyrim. It even got worse when you play his civil war campaign. Dude had an entire army and siege weapon ready to storm Whiterun as he sent you to Balgruuf, expecting the Jarl of Whiterun not to side with the Imperial. People gotta be blind and deaf if they think Ulfric is excusable in anyway.

[Ilja]

Yep. Ulfic is pretty much broken man. He is doing what he think is right for Skyrim, but can not see outside of that vision.

Season Unending is quite emotional situation, if you think about what is going on. Gjalmar is pretty much the only one around, who has no part in what has been actually going on.

On top of that, both Ulfric and Tullius were veterans of the Great War and both opposed the White-Gold Concordant. Loudly.

However, defeating Ulfric does not really leave Thalmor any more room. Just the opposite, I believe. Stormcloaks are the only reason why Inquisition gained legal grounds to enter in to Skyrim.

If you win the war for the Empire, Tullius confirms that they are now ready continue the war against Dominion.

On the other hand, if Ulfric wins, he will set sails toward islands to act directly against Dominion. Big question is, if his plans include anyone returning from that trip, but they will all meet in Sovengard.

[theo]

Somehow nobody asks how did Ulfric escape Thalmor imprisonment twice. You wouldn't think it was that simple, or that they would release him without conditions.
Obviously he is magically mind controlled by the Thalmor and does everything to their benefit. Maybe he isn't even alive anymore, but a necromantic puppet. Maybe it's a master illusionist elf wearing Ulfric's skin. With all real politik nonsense you forget there's magic in this world.
And isn't it convenient how he doesn't have any close relatives and his only friend (?) who didn't turn away from him has 20 IQ

[Ilja]

They let him "escape."

In Helgen, Elenwen is trying to get that happen for the third time and is not too pleased about Tullius' decision to end the Civil War right there, instead of giving Ulfirc for Thalmor, or parading him around the Imperial City.

Not that he was going to admit to latter anyway. As noted above, they were both veterans of the Great War. Chopping Ulfric's head off in Helgen is pretty much a show of respect, considering the alternatives Tullius has.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Escrito originalmente por Ilja:

It requires some dedicated RP to play at Stormcloak side as well, seeing how they send you to your death, to let Ulfric escape from the Helgen. Ralof doesn't give a two f's about your or your life. You are a bait and distraction, so Jarl of Windhelm can escape, dead, if Hadvar had not helped you out during the opening.

Technically Alduin is the one that saved you from execution, not Hadvar.
The Storm-Cloaks were just as surprised by his showing up as the Empire were.

Could you argue The Storm-Cloaks didn't actually care about what happens to Helgen? Certainly. But, Why should they care?

It weren't their doing it was destroyed, Tulius was present and Helgen was an Empire loyal town.

All things considered I don't see too many reasons they would stop their escape and try to save the city that doesn't want them around anyways. A city that is, for the most part, nuked from altitude.

I would have left the Empire to clean up their own mess.

Probably would have sent someone to kill Tulius in the confusion, after all most of the Empires forces present are killed by Alduin and the other half are distracted with him. But, Logically Tulius likely would have been one of the first people out of the city and no doubt he would have been escorted out by Thalmor.

Not a fight the Rebels present could win I suspect.

[theo]

Escrito originalmente por Live, Laugh, Love-Craft:

Could you argue The Storm-Cloaks didn't actually care about what happens to Helgen? Certainly. But, Why should they care?

So much for their alleged patriotism lol

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Escrito originalmente por theo:

Somehow nobody asks how did Ulfric escape Thalmor imprisonment twice. You wouldn't think it was that simple, or that they would release him without conditions.
Obviously he is magically mind controlled by the Thalmor and does everything to their benefit. Maybe he isn't even alive anymore, but a necromantic puppet. Maybe it's a master illusionist elf wearing Ulfric's skin. With all real politik nonsense you forget there's magic in this world.
And isn't it convenient how he doesn't have any close relatives and his only friend (?) who didn't turn away from him has 20 IQ

They manipulated Ulfric into thinking his information lead to the collapse of the Empire when in reality the Empire had fallen before he told them anything. At which point he was released from Thalmor prison and made an asset of Elween (Or whatever the ♥♥♥♥ her name is, I'll just say Bob) But Ulfric wasn't aware of any of this and letting him escape was a incredibly dumb move on their part.

The lore says Ulfric was a good resource to the Thalmor because he wiped out the Forsworn that had took Markarth, but it doesn't explain exactly how that helped them.

He helped the jarl of Markarth clear the primitives out and in exchange they would be allowed to worship Talos in the city. He agreeded. The Great-War ended, The Legion tried to return home to Markarth but were blocked from entering the city until the Empire also agreed to allow Talos Worship. They too agreed with it. But were hoping the Thalmor never found out about it, they did, forced the Empire to neg on their agreement, which angered Ulfric and started the Civil-War proper, this lead to Ulfric's second arrest, which the game says was beneficial to the Thalmor but... They already had him arrested earlier, so?....

Not really helpful. And after they freed him the only thing he did was form the Stormcloak Militia and take back Markarth, again nothing clearly helping the Thalmor.

You can't even argue "They let him do it to weaken the Empire" because the Empire had already lost by this point.

Ulfric "Killing the old High-King and being a murderous traitor" is Empire nonsense.
Ulfric challenged Torygg to a traditional death-match for the throne, something that once issued can not be declined.

It may seem barbaric to the Empire, but to the Nords (And Orcs, they have something very similar) it's just the way of life.

Ulfric said he stabbed him with a sword, Empire says he shouted him to death. Either way it doesn't actually change anything, Ulfric challenged him and the better warrior won.

It's more an example of how a jarl in Skyrim, a place where Might makes right, should probably learn some shouts or accept the fact that your challengers may be able to literally blow your away with a single word.

Anyways, After Alduin returned and Ulfric escaped, a new moot was called but Ulfric and some of his holds declined to partake in it fearing Elisif would just be handed the throne. Again, it's worth pointing out that under Nordic Customs Ulfric should have been made High-King since he won the fight.

But, it's not a leap in judgement to say he was denied his right by Empire supporters solely because him being High-King wouldn't have been advantageous for the Empire.

It's also worth pointing out Shouts aren't really all that strong and there was nothing stopping a Nord Mage loyal to the Empire from challenging Ulfric again after he takes the throne and then killing him with a single Fire-Ball. At which point he then uses his power to turn the entire country over to the Empire, doing away with High-Kings entirely.

It makes no sense the Empire would allow such a thing anyways. The Empire was based off Rome and Rome would have never allowed anything like that, instead they would appoint a Roman Magistrate as Governor of a providence and if you didn't like it... Who cares? You lost. You either went to the wilds and joined a rebel group or were publicly executed to demoralize future attempts at rebellion.

[SpeedFreak1972]

It may be skyrims tradition to challenge Torygg that way, however Skyrim is part of the empire and the laws of the empire are what counts here. If you like it or not.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Escrito originalmente por theo:

Escrito originalmente por Live, Laugh, Love-Craft:

Could you argue The Storm-Cloaks didn't actually care about what happens to Helgen? Certainly. But, Why should they care?

So much for their alleged patriotism lol

Same could be said for the American Union.