When you think about it, you never really play the Hero

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

At Face Value this is an obvious "No".
You are the Hero in all of them, but I'm going to focus on the last Three to explain my views.

In Morrowind you Destroy the Heart of Creation

In Oblivion you seal an entire realm of Oblivion for good (Not really, but that's what the game says)

In Skyrim you end the creature who's sole reason for existing is setting the cycle anew whenever it gets too messy. Now, you could argue Alduin grew corrupted over time, but it doesn't change the fact that he was going to do the Gods bidding regardless at some stage. He was chained, just couldn't tell.

Inlight of Morrowind and Oblivion, one could argue the cycle is indeed beyond trying to work within it's probably better to just reset it already.

All three of these are pretty big deals, Things that would have huge repercussions. That Repercussion I think being the Magika slowly leaving Nirn.

It's also worth pointing out that you never directly deal with any of the Nine. They do almost nothing, might as well not even exist. Like they are ignoring you, the alleged "Hero and Champion" The Rune-Stones and Doom Stones give you more of a boon, Hell, The Princes themselves give you more.

Morrowind, Azura is the person you're helping A Deadric Prince.

Oblivion, Sheogorath literally takes your body and there is no proof Martian's Dragon Form had anything to do with the Nine. Infact, we know Martian was a cultist to the princes earlier in his life and he's the only one who had access to the books to study them, often in private.

It's within the realm of possibility he was being tricked. Or, outright was lying to you. If the goal was to destroy the amulet of kings, and Dagon couldn't get his hands on it, it is entirely plusible he would have eventually came up with a scheme to trick the people who do have it into destroying it.

The gates are shuts, but he can find a way to crack them back open. He's got nothing but time. With the Amulet gone, there's no real way to stop him again.

And the Nine never directly do anything with you in Skyrim even though the game would have you believe they should. Almost as if they knew Alduin was rebelling but didn't care because he was still going to serve his divine purpose whether he realized it or not.

Obviously this is complete nonsense, there is no deeper meaning behind the games. They are literally as simple as you think they are. But, it's fun to imagine there is a deeper meaning.

[ruppe27]

I think The nine are either long gone or they never existed at all.

[psychotron666]

The divines are indeed dead, that's why you don't see them. They have power, but only if people have belief in them. Because the entire universe is just the dream of some god, and those who can realize it's a dream can lucid dream and get ultimate power (chim), the divines only exist because thousands of people believe them to exist in a bunch of mini chims, that make them exist. That's why the thalmor want belief in Talos to be outlawed, because eventually he will lose his power if they don't believe in him (at least they think so, but it's possible because he achieved Chim himself he will be unaffected by others' belief in him).

Though in morrowind you meet talos, as the only divine we physically meet so far.

[Legiondorf]

I'm just joining the Thieves Guild to get some underground ties that might be useful... I'M NOT A BAD GUY!

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

In regards to Dagon's Realm being shut off. One could argue those gates are slowly opening back up by the time Skyrim came around. He can't directly manifest yet. He can, however, observe the world, talk to the people within it and manifest his own boons.

It's food for thought, maybe Oblivion wasn't so simple a game narratively speaking.

Like I said, perhaps his entire goal was to lose in the short-term so he could win in the long-term. The Amulet is the only thing that really stops him and among the princes he's often shown as the most powerful, sometimes second but Sheogorath is just as likely to kill himself as fight Dagon. Assuming he has any real interest beyond his realm anyways, which I got the impression from Shivering Isles he doesn't really care about Mundus all that much. Not enough to want to directly take over anyways. He seems far more interested in with toying with the natives then lording over them.

He couldn't directly get his hands on the Amulet, so he tricked you and Martian and everyone else into destroying it to stop a Fake Invasion that was never planned to succeed in the first place.

With the Cold-Harbor Pact, one could argue that likely wasn't him at the end of the game anyways. Cold-Harbor aside, we have no proof that was actually him and not some unknown grander Dremora. Or a Meaty Puppet he was plucking the strings on from his own realm.

With the heart of creation dead and two of the three living gods just as dead, it stands to reason there would be even less reasons for Dagon to adhere to the pact. There's nothing enforcing but a single living god that is now slowly losing his power.

Probably why Azura wanted it destroyed. You chopping off two of the hands is just icing on the cake.

Vivec probably isn't the one they would have picked to be left alive, but with the other two gone and the heart destroyed it's just a waiting game for him to be left too weak to actually fight them off.

After all, these are still Evil Princes were talking about. Azura may be less Evil, but Evil all the same.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The divines are indeed dead, that's why you don't see them. They have power, but only if people have belief in them. Because the entire universe is just the dream of some god, and those who can realize it's a dream can lucid dream and get ultimate power (chim)

Is that canon or just Kirkbride nonsense?
Like when Cyrodil went from a Jungle to a Temperate Forest.
"When Tiber Septim gained divinity he warped reality"
Even though he existed as a god in the older games and Cyrodil not being a Jungle only exists from Oblivion onwards.

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Though in morrowind you meet talos, as the only divine we physically meet so far.

Again, what proof do we have that Wulf was actually an aspect of him? Stands to reason the Princes would have just as much to gain from the heart being destroyed then the Gods who seemingly don't interact with the world anymore and are already planning on Alduin destroying it in the next couple of centuries anyways.

From their perspective, who cares if Dagoth Ur wins and spreads the blight everywhere? They've already started the count-down to doomsday anyways.

[Rez Elwin]

Who's the Hero is often a matter of perspective.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Live, Laugh, Love-Craft:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The divines are indeed dead, that's why you don't see them. They have power, but only if people have belief in them. Because the entire universe is just the dream of some god, and those who can realize it's a dream can lucid dream and get ultimate power (chim)

Is that canon or just Kirkbride nonsense?
Like when Cyrodil went from a Jungle to a Temperate Forest.
"When Tiber Septim gained divinity he warped reality"
Even though he existed as a god in the older games and Cyrodil not being a Jungle only exists from Oblivion onwards.

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Though in morrowind you meet talos, as the only divine we physically meet so far.

Again, what proof do we have that Wulf was actually an aspect of him? Stands to reason the Princes would have just as much to gain from the heart being destroyed then the Gods who seemingly don't interact with the world anymore and are already planning on Alduin destroying it in the next couple of centuries anyways.

From their perspective, who cares if Dagoth Ur wins and spreads the blight everywhere? They've already started the count-down to doomsday anyways.

Chim is canon now, and yes it's the canon explanation that Talos turned cyrodil climate (the priest in Skyrim in Whiterun mentions this as well as in game books) in between the 6 years between morrowind and oblivion, but using Chim made it retroactively changed so nobody noticed the change, it was like it was always like that. Yes it's a weak explanation for changing the landscape but it's the official one.

As for Wulf, we have about as much evidence he's an aspect of Talos as any of the daedra. The priest from the church will tell you he's an aspect of Talos, and say that he looks identical to the face on the coin (which is Tiber septim) and there's no option for the nerevarine to deny that. And there's no way she's an agent of a daedra, she's one of the top people in the church and a devout believer of Talos there no way she'd lie about that or be an agent of a daedra.

And in Skyrim when you go to sovengarde (which actually exists) the people there mention that Talos hangs around there, and that he's away right now on business (and speculation that the dragonborn is a shezzarine and so an aspect of Talos, and that business has to do with the dragonborn).

Of all the divines we have legit proof of the existence and power of Talos and lorkhan (both the heart of lorkhan and now sovengarde itself shown in game).

[cl656]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The divines are indeed dead

No they aren't. The existence of Alduin and the fact you didn't absorb his soul proves the divines aren't dead./ Another thing that proves they aren't dead, is the fact that praying to them at their altar gives you power, and it is Akatosh, that bestows the gift of the voice.

[Von Faustien]

Talos litterly apears in person and gives the Nevernerine his boon at ghost gate before the assult on the sixth house. sure its debatable if he counts as an adera but he is counted as one of the none and honestly the diffrence between adera, deadra and magna gi comes down to a choice they made there all the same stock and ♥♥♥♥ Merdia and Malacath arent even deadra ones a magngi and ones a straight adera that got ♥♥♥♥ on/out. Azura is only different from the 8 in that she didnt directly aid in creation and frankly the Khajit mythology doesn't even agree on that.

Martian was a cultist of Saguin you kow the orgy and ragging party guy not sure imitating Akatosh is in his wheel house

Dagons invaded and got his ass kicked a dozen times hes the team rocket of evil gods sure he can pry the gate open and trash a few cities but hes a loser and like the last atempts will fail. besides he got what he wanted hes the god of change not domination he was made to overthrow the existing order as a weapon by the magna gi to counter molag bal and last I look the existing order on Nirn is gone.

oh sheogorath doesnt take your body you become him old sheogorath is out plotting revenge as Jygalag. plus ESO lore about Haskil means the champion of cyrodil could still exist as a semi independent part of the mad god like Barbus and Clavicus vile.

[HazakTheMad]

Sheogorath doesn’t really take your body, you take his essence, you become a sheogorath and the sheogorath at the same time.

[Von Faustien]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Originally posted by Live, Laugh, Love-Craft:

Is that canon or just Kirkbride nonsense?
Like when Cyrodil went from a Jungle to a Temperate Forest.
"When Tiber Septim gained divinity he warped reality"
Even though he existed as a god in the older games and Cyrodil not being a Jungle only exists from Oblivion onwards.


Again, what proof do we have that Wulf was actually an aspect of him? Stands to reason the Princes would have just as much to gain from the heart being destroyed then the Gods who seemingly don't interact with the world anymore and are already planning on Alduin destroying it in the next couple of centuries anyways.

From their perspective, who cares if Dagoth Ur wins and spreads the blight everywhere? They've already started the count-down to doomsday anyways.

Chim is canon now, and yes it's the canon explanation that Talos turned cyrodil climate (the priest in Skyrim in Whiterun mentions this as well as in game books) in between the 6 years between morrowind and oblivion, but using Chim made it retroactively changed so nobody noticed the change, it was like it was always like that. Yes it's a weak explanation for changing the landscape but it's the official one.

As for Wulf, we have about as much evidence he's an aspect of Talos as any of the daedra. The priest from the church will tell you he's an aspect of Talos, and say that he looks identical to the face on the coin (which is Tiber septim) and there's no option for the nerevarine to deny that. And there's no way she's an agent of a daedra, she's one of the top people in the church and a devout believer of Talos there no way she'd lie about that or be an agent of a daedra.

And in Skyrim when you go to sovengarde (which actually exists) the people there mention that Talos hangs around there, and that he's away right now on business (and speculation that the dragonborn is a shezzarine and so an aspect of Talos, and that business has to do with the dragonborn).

Of all the divines we have legit proof of the existence and power of Talos and lorkhan (both the heart of lorkhan and now sovengarde itself shown in game).

Tsun is also an aderic god and we not only talk to him but fight him. we also have the whole KOTN thing in oblvion pretty blatent influence by the adera in that one

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by cool-dude:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The divines are indeed dead

No they aren't. The existence of Alduin and the fact you didn't absorb his soul proves the divines aren't dead./ Another thing that proves they aren't dead, is the fact that praying to them at their altar gives you power, and it is Akatosh, that bestows the gift of the voice.

You're misunderstanding what I mean. They are dead in that they sacrificed themselves to make nirn. Unlike daedra who didn't sacrifice themselves, the divines can manifest their powers directly in nirn, while the daedra cannot (they must use artifacts and followers to spread their influence and build their conduits).

The aedra are no longer living like the daedra are, they are bound to aetherius and it's connection to nirn, they can't go and travel to other realms and meet other daedra Lords like the daedra can.

They exist, but they are dead. They have power, but again they are dead.

[theo]

Originally posted by Live, Laugh, Love-Craft:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The divines are indeed dead, that's why you don't see them. They have power, but only if people have belief in them. Because the entire universe is just the dream of some god, and those who can realize it's a dream can lucid dream and get ultimate power (chim)

Is that canon or just Kirkbride nonsense?
Like when Cyrodil went from a Jungle to a Temperate Forest.
"When Tiber Septim gained divinity he warped reality"
Even though he existed as a god in the older games and Cyrodil not being a Jungle only exists from Oblivion onwards.

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Though in morrowind you meet talos, as the only divine we physically meet so far.

Again, what proof do we have that Wulf was actually an aspect of him? Stands to reason the Princes would have just as much to gain from the heart being destroyed then the Gods who seemingly don't interact with the world anymore and are already planning on Alduin destroying it in the next couple of centuries anyways.

From their perspective, who cares if Dagoth Ur wins and spreads the blight everywhere? They've already started the count-down to doomsday anyways.

'Kirkbride nonsense' is what constitutes canon TES lore, especially its metaphysics.
How the eight divines basically sacrificed themselves to create Nirn is core lore though. Or a creation myth of mortals living in Tamriel rather, which may or may not have any truth in it.

Elder Scrolls is a gray setting therefore its heroes are also gray.

[SpeedFreak1972]

Well kirkbride doesn't work at Bethesda anymore so everything AFTER he left isn't canon imho.

[theo]

Originally posted by SpeedFreak1972:

Well kirkbride doesn't work at Bethesda anymore so everything AFTER he left isn't canon imho.

Wouldn't go that far, they still use ideas he established and work with him directly, at least that's been the case with Oblivion and Skyrim.