Orcs vs Goblins

[Pyrrhus]

Has anyone felt that Amazon's LOR the Rings of Power got it all wrong on Orcs? They look more like Goblins to me than Orcs but are poorly labelled as Orcs in Amazon's LOR series. Both are different races, aren't they? I prolly could list more than 20 distinctions between Orcs and Goblins base their beliefs, appearances, behaviors, etc. There should be some good Orc tribes like in Skyrim but not anything like that in LOR as Amazon has pushed Orcs into more hideous Goblins. Amazon should learn a thing or two from Skyrim's Orcs.

[Pyrrhus]

I guess I could buy that kind evolution theory. Its just incredible for sickly Orcs (Goblins) to evolve into warriors within some thousands of years. It took humans millions of years to slowly evolve from primates to cavemen to how many ages of man until now. At this rate, Orcs prolly would evolve into superior lifeforms over all races or species, even higher than high elves sometimes within 50,000 years. Elves surely wouldn't like that, lol.

[Fear2288]

Pyrrhus eredeti hozzászólása:

I guess I could buy that kind evolution theory. Its just incredible for sickly Orcs (Goblins) to evolve into warriors within some thousands of years. It took humans millions of years to slowly evolve from primates to cavemen to how many ages of man until now. At this rate, Orcs prolly would evolve into superior lifeforms over all races or species, even higher than high elves sometimes within 50,000 years. Elves surely wouldn't like that, lol.

A. The orcs you see in RoP are not the only orcs in all of Middle Earth. They scattered all over the place following Sauron’s predecessor’s defeat. You’re seeing ONE group/population.

B. We have no knowledge of Orc genetics, this isn’t like Warhammer 40k where Tolkien also created and wrote out the “science” behind things. Thus, we have no idea how quickly or slowly they can physically/intellectually adapt.

C. Evolution is not a process by which an organism just continuously “gets better”. It’s driven by environmental factors. If an organism hits a point where it can successfully adapt and survive in its environment, then there’s nothing driving that need to evolve/change.

For example, while humans could be “better” if we had wings, could breathe underwater, and could regenerate limbs - we generally don’t need those things to be able to survive day-to-day and there really isn’t anything that’s “genetically forcing” us to begin developing those things in our physiology.

[Scrogdog]

I'm one of the few people that didn't have the patience for Tolkien, frankly.

Too verbose, though I know that's what a lot of people liked about him.

I'm like... ok, ok, I get it! It's a nice effing meadow! Get on with it man! :)

But yes, back on topic and with regards to Fear's point A; both fantasy and sci-fi often portray a race as a sort of singular entity. They all act like this and believe that, for example. Nothing wrong with the idea of diversity among Orcs in my view.

[ralphtobybob]

nickmicgray eredeti hozzászólása:

Orcs cannot walk in the sun but they can in lotr. That alone irks me.

Not in Rings of Power. The last episode shows an Orc's arm getting sizzled by sunlight.

[alexander_dougherty]

fmalfeas eredeti hozzászólása:

If it helps, think of Goblins in the LoTR setting being more of the underground, skulking, swarming type, while Orcs are more of the aboveground, militant type. Same species (all descended from horribly tortured victims, mostly elves, twisted into the opposite of what they once were...short lived instead of eternal, brutish instead of graceful, vicious instead of thoughtful, fugly instead of beautiful) just divided by what they do best and where they prefer to live.

And when the Dark Lord calls, they all march under the same banner.

Why the two names? Dwarves and Hobbits are the most likely to run into Goblins, as they're the most likely to be underground. Thus, they named the cave-dwelling variety.

I have taken some time to figure out how to say this.
Tolkien's Goblins and Orcs were not the same race, they may have started out as the same race, but Tolkien treated them as different:

Orcs do not consider Goblins as equals, even the Goblin King from the Hobbit wouldn't have gotten any respect from an Orc. An Orc more or less automatically outranks a Goblin.
They are different Sizes, the Goblin King who was much bigger than his subjects was the size of a small Orc, so you could see by looking if your enemies were Orcs or Goblins.
They do not interbreed, an Orc would rather fight to the death than even think about mating with a Goblin.
Except when Sauron is calling they prefer to kill each other, peaceful relations of any sort did not take place..... in fact in the Books it was implied the Orcs were going to Kill the Goblin King, just to keep the Goblins in their place....

And the Books were massively different to the Films..... the Films are inaccurate in every single regard... they don't even keep the Hobbits the same size throughout a Film... Frodo Baggins for example changed between being chest height to Gandalf to Hip height and back several times in the first LOTR film.....

[Valden21]

Pyrrhus eredeti hozzászólása:

I guess I could buy that kind evolution theory. Its just incredible for sickly Orcs (Goblins) to evolve into warriors within some thousands of years. It took humans millions of years to slowly evolve from primates to cavemen to how many ages of man until now. At this rate, Orcs prolly would evolve into superior lifeforms over all races or species, even higher than high elves sometimes within 50,000 years. Elves surely wouldn't like that, lol.

LoTR Orcs wouldn't evolve like that, and a big part of it is because of how they came into existence in the first place. In LoTR, the original Orcs were Elves that Morgoth captured and tortured until their minds and bodies were broken into a form that would serve him without question. Sauron is Morgoth's stand-in, and both of them lack the creativity, and have way too much pride and arrogance, to let the Orcs develop and evolve on their own; every way they change is because it's dictated to them.

Orcs have only one purpose in LoTR: combat. They're soldiers, nothing else. Sauron WANTS them to be aggressive and combative, even towards each other. If left on their own, they would fight amongst themselves until their population died out. Remember, there are no female Orcs, so without Sauron or Saruman, they can't restore their population.

That portrayal is specific to LoTR. In other portrayals, it can swing between the positive, and the negative. In Skyrim, for example, Orcs are just like everyone else.

[Fear2288]

alexander_dougherty eredeti hozzászólása:

fmalfeas eredeti hozzászólása:

If it helps, think of Goblins in the LoTR setting being more of the underground, skulking, swarming type, while Orcs are more of the aboveground, militant type. Same species (all descended from horribly tortured victims, mostly elves, twisted into the opposite of what they once were...short lived instead of eternal, brutish instead of graceful, vicious instead of thoughtful, fugly instead of beautiful) just divided by what they do best and where they prefer to live.

And when the Dark Lord calls, they all march under the same banner.

Why the two names? Dwarves and Hobbits are the most likely to run into Goblins, as they're the most likely to be underground. Thus, they named the cave-dwelling variety.

I have taken some time to figure out how to say this.
Tolkien's Goblins and Orcs were not the same race, they may have started out as the same race, but Tolkien treated them as different:

Orcs do not consider Goblins as equals, even the Goblin King from the Hobbit wouldn't have gotten any respect from an Orc. An Orc more or less automatically outranks a Goblin.
They are different Sizes, the Goblin King who was much bigger than his subjects was the size of a small Orc, so you could see by looking if your enemies were Orcs or Goblins.
They do not interbreed, an Orc would rather fight to the death than even think about mating with a Goblin.
Except when Sauron is calling they prefer to kill each other, peaceful relations of any sort did not take place..... in fact in the Books it was implied the Orcs were going to Kill the Goblin King, just to keep the Goblins in their place....

And the Books were massively different to the Films..... the Films are inaccurate in every single regard... they don't even keep the Hobbits the same size throughout a Film... Frodo Baggins for example changed between being chest height to Gandalf to Hip height and back several times in the first LOTR film.....

Except Tolkien actually says they’re the same thing. They’re the same creature.

It’s kinda like how people use “SE” and “AE” as if they’re two entirely different and separate versions of Skyrim, but they’re not.

“Goblins” are what Hobbits and others call the Orcs who chose to live under the various mountain ranges after Sauron and his predecessor’s defeats. They adapted to those conditions and physically changed, but they’re still Orcs.

They’re not a different species.

[Know Won]

They ruining the lore in so many ways. I would not be surprised they rewrite the fact orcs were decended from elves ...

[alexander_dougherty]

Random eredeti hozzászólása:

They ruining the lore in so many ways. I would not be surprised they rewrite the fact orcs were decended from elves ...

That was always in the books, Sauron tortured and twisted Elves into Orcs and Ents into Trolls, that is nothing new.

[steventirey]

alexander_dougherty eredeti hozzászólása:

Random eredeti hozzászólása:

They ruining the lore in so many ways. I would not be surprised they rewrite the fact orcs were decended from elves ...

That was always in the books, Sauron tortured and twisted Elves into Orcs and Ents into Trolls, that is nothing new.

Read that again. He is saying them may decide to do something other than that.

[Fear2288]

alexander_dougherty eredeti hozzászólása:

Random eredeti hozzászólása:

They ruining the lore in so many ways. I would not be surprised they rewrite the fact orcs were decended from elves ...

That was always in the books, Sauron tortured and twisted Elves into Orcs and Ents into Trolls, that is nothing new.

Ents got turned into trolls?

I missed that one.

I can buy humans and elves turning into orcs via torture and magic, but turning trees into - essentially - bigger, dumber orcs feels like a stretch lol

[steventirey]

Trolls weren't necessarily made from ents. I believe the quote is something along the lines of trolls being made in mockery of ents. So not necessarily made from ents.

They were created from something else for sure. One of the things is, evil can't create new things. Only alter or corrupt already existing things. In this case, likely stone as trolls being returned to the stone they were made from is mentioned. Only one being (Eru Iluvatar) has the power to create new life.

[alexander_dougherty]

Fear2288 eredeti hozzászólása:

alexander_dougherty eredeti hozzászólása:

That was always in the books, Sauron tortured and twisted Elves into Orcs and Ents into Trolls, that is nothing new.

Ents got turned into trolls?

I missed that one.

I can buy humans and elves turning into orcs via torture and magic, but turning trees into - essentially - bigger, dumber orcs feels like a stretch lol

Well the Ent-maids are missing, maybe he made Trolls out of them..... and they were never described.....

steventirey eredeti hozzászólása:

Trolls weren't necessarily made from ents. I believe the quote is something along the lines of trolls being made in mockery of ents. So not necessarily made from ents.

Fair point.

[Pyrrhus]

"Even Tolkien was never really sure where orcs came from"

https://www.polygon.com/23379185/lord-rings-power-orcs-origin-tolkien

Umm....