Executed at full health?!

[PRPE7UAL]

Is this supposed to be happening? I thought you had to be at very low health to be executed (to trigger the insta-kill animations I mean).

[Lady Aeleanor]

I had this happen a couple of times when I was first starting this playthrough. I got swarmed by bandits, and then one came up behind me with a warhammer and .....dead.

[Ilja]

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

Originally posted by Ilja:

Actually, it is considered acting as intended. The referred massive damage system is in the game.

As said above, it is easy enough to bypass.

Originally posted by Ilja:

PC targeted killcam is indeed sort of bugged. Game does not calculate the damge correctly, so any massive damage that exceeds the treshold will cause a killcam.

This is literally your own comment.

The reason this doesn't happen on any other difficulty is the massive order of magntidue in differences of numeric values because of the AI doing x3 damage.

Anomalous function seemimgly caused by inccorect calculations isn't WAD.

Did you check the date? That reply was literally posted 3 years ago.

After that I found that game isn't calculating chance of finishing moves based on just one strike. It calculates them on 4 strike range.

It does not only calculate the damage, but terrain and position as well. Game determines that the lowly bandit would kill you from that position and then proceeds on that.

It is weird and badly planned. But it does not actually seem to be bugged.

If there is some variable that is broken, then I do not know about it.

[258789553873]

I often have this happen to me when I play on expert. It would seem that increasing the difficulty increases the range at which an npc can perform a killmove on you. I just avoid doing bandit camps between the levels of 10 and 20, since it seems only bandit chiefs around that level range can cause this.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Ilja:

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

This is literally your own comment.

The reason this doesn't happen on any other difficulty is the massive order of magntidue in differences of numeric values because of the AI doing x3 damage.

Anomalous function seemimgly caused by inccorect calculations isn't WAD.

Did you check the date? That reply was literally posted 3 years ago.

After that I found that game isn't calculating chance of finishing moves based on just one strike. It calculates them on 4 strike range.

It does not only calculate the damage, but terrain and position as well. Game determines that the lowly bandit would kill you from that position and then proceeds on that.

It is weird and badly planned. But it does not actually seem to be bugged.

If there is some variable that is broken, then I do not know about it.

The oneus is on you to say you've changed your opinion beforehand when you're contradicting yourself, now isn't it?

Anyways I have found no actual evidence that the calculations are done off of the equivalent of 4 hits worth of damage whatsoever. Terrain also only factors in in terms of what animation is played and in some cases there is no terrain impact.

A dragon will eat you irrespective of terrain.

Also this happens. At high levels. Wherein the damage dealt over 4 strikes would not be enough to kill the player.

My personal experience seems to hint that the entire phenomenon is an overcalculation wherein the algorithim fails due to the fact that at high difficulty settings damage is amplified x3 on the player whereas all NPCs take something like 1/3 of all damage.

The algorithim seems to not have been patched whatsoever to accomodate that x3 modifier and it seems like the usual killcam thresh is triggered by the buffed damage.

The game thinks that the damage is more than enough to kill since the damage being dealt is artificially modified, irrespective of if it actually is.

Your original conclusion seems to be the more accurate one.

[Ilja]

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

The oneus is on you to say you've changed your opinion beforehand when you're contradicting yourself, now isn't it?

It is called as gathering information. This information actually was around, when I originally wrote the reply, but I had missed it. Community haven't been sleeping for 3 years. We are actually quite active and learning new things from system, mods and tool progression all the time. Information does change.

You do not mean that people can not change their replies, when they get new information about the matter? That's not "contradicting yourself." It is being able to learn.

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

Your original conclusion seems to be the more accurate one.

My original conclusion seems to be wrong one.

I never have an issue of admitting that I was wrong. It is the only way to learn.

If you prove me that all the testing and articles done about this matter have missed some broken variable that does not work as planned, then I am interested to hear about it.

Right now it looks like the system is actually working as BGS intended. Just not as is it expected - or preferred - by most players.

[Ambugaton]

Originally posted by Ilja:

<snip of the back and forth>
It is called as gathering information.

This is the more interesting part to me. What you said matches my experience. My game is no longer anywhere close to vanilla when it comes to combat, but after reading what you wrote I thought about it and when I've been taken out there's a high percentage of times when it's been my character on uneven ground and the enemy on higher ground dooing a rush attack.

Anyway, do you still remember the source for the info? Would be interesting to see exactly wat the game does.

[Ilja]

Originally posted by Ambugaton:

Anyway, do you still remember the source for the info? Would be interesting to see exactly wat the game does.

The PC>NPC system is well known and well presented, but I have hard time to find out any public source for NPC>PC system. It might be buried in to some Discord server.

The general consensus has been that same conditions apply, with difficulty variables in place.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim_talk:Combat/Archive_1#New_finishing_moves_text

If you really want to test it out, then use Death Alternative with VioLens for it. You can tweak damage with DA MCM settings and test outcomes with VioLens MCM options.

Tedious, but interesting process. That is what I used to test it out some outcomes, when we talked about if the system was consistent or not. I found it inconsistent, which lead me to believe that there was a bug, until I found out about more variables and 1-4 attack range. Range is now presented at UESPWiki Combat page - and not added by me.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Ilja:

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

The oneus is on you to say you've changed your opinion beforehand when you're contradicting yourself, now isn't it?

It is called as gathering information. This information actually was around, when I originally wrote the reply, but I had missed it. Community haven't been sleeping for 3 years. We are actually quite active and learning new things from system, mods and tool progression all the time. Information does change.

You do not mean that people can not change their replies, when they get new information about the matter? That's not "contradicting yourself." It is being able to learn.

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

Your original conclusion seems to be the more accurate one.

My original conclusion seems to be wrong one.

I never have an issue of admitting that I was wrong. It is the only way to learn.

If you prove me that all the testing and articles done about this matter have missed some broken variable that does not work as planned, then I am interested to hear about it.

Right now it looks like the system is actually working as BGS intended. Just not as is it expected - or preferred - by most players.

I love how you make an entire extraneous argument about how me implying that it's your job, not mine, to state a change of opinion when you seemingly expect other people to not question the conflicting information solely because you expect that. The information conflicts. Stating something that contradicts yourself without ever explaining some sort of change and then levying an entire absurd argument about it is pretty damn ridiculous my dude.

It is your job to clarify your own information if it has changed. That's not anyone else's job. It's your own.

Feels like you're just out to be argumentative

Also I'd love to see some of these articles or community posts because so far I have yet to see literally any of them indicating any of what you've said. I've only seen the contrary.

All game data says nothing other than terrain impacts what animation is chosen.

I also don't really get where this 1-4 attack range is even mentioned. It's not actually on the page you said it is. None of the comments in the link to the talk page mention anything similar out of all the time I spent looking.

I have literally been unable to actually find any of these apparently extant articles or even fan discussions even when explicitly looking.

Ironically that entire talk page's contents are almost all dated to 2012. I don't doubt that things change in that time but this is a game. Which has files, and numeric tables, and I can't find anything in practical, non-modded testing, or scouring the internet that hints that the reason that enemies are able to ignore all practical factors has something to do with 1-4 attack range. How that could even be WAD when 1-4 attacks often can't, crit or not, even bring the player into the normal range for a killcam, I also don't understand.

I'm a genuinely stupid person but I don't think that all of these inconsistencies are just from me being my usual idiotic self. The tests *I* have done, and have been doing, on top of scouring the files and internet don't even explicitly hint that the reason for killcams that exist outside the in-game norms is incorrect calculational translation due to difficulty modifying damage modifiers in a wonky way, they just indicate that something is anomalous and not WAD.

This being anomalous and exclusive to these higher settings doesn't seem tangibly WAD, I don't doubt that the system internally sees these inane deaths as being WAD, but on a practical level, that is to say on an ergonomic and just functional level, nothing about this feels intended.

If this was intended, it would happen without damage modifiers and could happen to NPCs given that on some settings, no modifiers exist.

Even the basic Wiki mentions that the conditions under which a full-health execution is possible, for a player, and in general, requires several orders of magnitude in outclassing, requiring backstabs and stealth modifiers to even be possible, even with the magnitude of outclassing.

Literally just about every available source of information contradicts you in one way or another, and were the random Discords where this was apparently proven really that conclusive, they'd be represented by the aggregated 7 years of study put into Skyrim's mechanics at least /somewhere/ in *some* way.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Ambugaton:

Originally posted by Ilja:

<snip of the back and forth>
It is called as gathering information.

This is the more interesting part to me. What you said matches my experience. My game is no longer anywhere close to vanilla when it comes to combat, but after reading what you wrote I thought about it and when I've been taken out there's a high percentage of times when it's been my character on uneven ground and the enemy on higher ground dooing a rush attack.

Anyway, do you still remember the source for the info? Would be interesting to see exactly wat the game does.

Just look at the two Wikis and basically everywhere else, neither uneven ground nor higher ground have an actual impact on things like damage dealt, crit chance, or anything else, really. The game just checks terrain to determine if certain animations are acceptable and executes one semi-randomly. If an animation is going to play, it fires usually irrespective of terrain but if you're in an enclosed space or in an area where a given animation may cause collision it'll avoid that animation to lessen the chances of something goofy happening like an OOB glitch or death to physics.

Terrain's only impact on combat is really in the player's ability to exploit it via doing things like scaling rocks or vaulting over a table to evade an enemy or for whatever tactic a player is going for.

The system isn't as obscure in explanation as he seems to think it is, the game is 7 years old and there is very little people don't know about it, full health executions are an exception where there is more ambiguity but nothing really seems to indicate anywhere I've looked that terrain or a "1-4 strike range" has any impact.

The exclusivity to specific difficulties and those difficulties' kind of shoddy implementation of modifiers to combat all point to the game incorrectly thinking that you'd be killed by an attack even when you might be a literal tank that can survive almost anything, and it seems to happen more, if not exclusively, with two-handed weapons. Which have a pretty beefy attack, which with a modifier could conceivably look on paper like it could 1 shot an ancient dragon, which would then trigger a killcam due to the game believing that you couldn't survive.

It's also not out of the question to imagine that the base damage of an attack on paper would probably kill you if not for things like armour and its impact on damage received.

For a player to do this however you have to literally be able to kill an enemy a dozen times over, full health to zero, with their armour, in one hit. Something that tests say is only possible with stealth.

Which makes sense in contrast to player deaths in the context of legendary difficulty or other settings of that tier because the modifications to player damage wouldn't result in a number that on paper is an easy one-hit-kill.