Amren Dark face bug in Whiterun (also posted on nexus)

[Snailman]

Hi Steam, so i have an issue with Amren in Whiterun keeping being bugged with "dark face bug" (and yes he is a redguard so he is supposed to have dark face, but that is not what im talking about)

i think it is from my WICO, but i am not sure, i have found several load order suggestions online, but none of them has worked, i have also tried useing USSEP patch, and the Cleaning script from Hishy.


i hope somebody will help me



my load order is as following:



0 0 Skyrim.esm
1 1 Update.esm
2 2 Dawnguard.esm
3 3 HearthFires.esm
4 4 Dragonborn.esm
5 5 RSkyrimChildren.esm
6 6 Lanterns Of Skyrim - All In One - Main.esm
7 7 Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch.esp
8 8 Campfire.esm
9 9 ApachiiHair.esm
10 a ApachiiHairFemales.esm
11 b ApachiiHairMales.esm
254 FE 0 Ecotone Dual Sheath.esl
12 c RaceCompatibility.esm
13 d TerrainLodRedone.esp
14 e SkyUI_SE.esp
15 f Obsidian Weathers.esp
16 10 SMIM-SE-Merged-All.esp
17 11 Weapons Armor Clothing & Clutter Fixes.esp
18 12 S3DTrees NextGenerationForests.esp
19 13 Immersive Jewelry.esp
20 14 Cutting Room Floor.esp
21 15 WACCF_Armor and Clothing Extension.esp
22 16 RLO - Interiors.esp
23 17 RLO - Exteriors.esp
24 18 Eli_Breezehome.esp
25 19 DawnguardArsenal.esp
26 1a 144fps.esp
27 1b BlendedRoads.esp
28 1c icepenguinworldmapclassic.esp
29 1d AMatterOfTime.esp
30 1e Settlements Expanded SE.esp
31 1f Hothtrooper44_ArmorCompilation.esp
32 20 Ars Metallica.esp
33 21 AIMFIX.esp
254 FE 1 Demon Hunter Armor.esp
34 22 CrimsonTwilightArmor.esp
35 23 Disenchanting - Dawnguard.esp
36 24 CBBE.esp
37 25 Black Mage Armor SE.esp
38 26 Crimson Ranger Armor.esp
39 27 Guards_Armor_Replacer.esp
40 28 Cloaks.esp
41 29 DIS_Heavy_Legion.esp
42 2a Cloaks - Dawnguard.esp
254 FE 2 Cloaks_SMP_Patch.esp
43 2b Immersive Horses.esp
44 2c Craftable Horse Barding.esp
45 2d Ecotone Dual Sheath Patch.esp
46 2e ElvenHelmetFix.esp
47 2f Dark Face Bug Fix.esp
48 30 DIS_Replacer.esp
49 31 LostLongSwords.esp
50 32 FixVampireLord - Revert Form.esp
51 33 12FemaleBrows.esp
52 34 CharacterMakingExtender.esp
53 35 FNIS.esp
54 36 dD - Enhanced Blood Main.esp
55 37 MoonlightTalesMCM.esp
56 38 PerksNoHelmet.esp
57 39 Footprints.esp
58 3a InsanitySorrow Weapons Pack.esp
254 FE 3 mihaildraugrpatrols.esp
59 3b Settlements Expanded SE - Lanterns of Skyrim Patch.esp
60 3c EnhancedCharacterEdit.esp
61 3d Better Looking Vampires.esp
62 3e QuickLight.esp
63 3f RSChildren.esp
64 40 RLO - CRF Patch.esp
65 41 RichMerchantsSkyrim_x10.esp
66 42 GoToBed-VisibleFavoritedGear-patch.esp
67 43 PipeSmokingSE.esp
68 44 Settlements Expanded SE - RS Children Patch.esp
69 45 Serana.esp
70 46 XPMSE.esp
71 47 dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - High.esp
72 48 Disenchanting - Dragonborn.esp
73 49 WeightLessTrueAll.esp
74 4a weight.esp
75 4b Cloaks - USSEP Patch.esp
76 4c ThaneWeaponsReborn.esp
77 4d Visible Favorited Gear.esp
78 4e opmfgconsole.esp
79 4f AMB Glass Variants Lore.esp
80 50 skyforgedWeapons.esp
81 51 The Eyes Of Beauty - Elves Edition.esp
82 52 SkyHUD.esp
83 53 ShowRaceMenuAlternative.esp
84 54 SimplyKnock.esp
85 55 Guild Duelist Armor.esp
86 56 UnarmoredVampireGear.esp
87 57 Volkihar Knight.esp
88 58 VampireSun.esp
89 59 The Paarthurnax Dilemma.esp
90 5a skoomadealer.esp
254 FE 4 mihaildraugrcavalry.esp
91 5b TheLily.esp
92 5c TheEyesOfBeauty.esp
93 5d WeightLessTrueCrafting.esp
94 5e WeightLessTrueGems.esp
95 5f WeightLessTrueIngredients.esp
96 60 WeightLessTrueScrolls.esp
97 61 WeightLessTrueSoulGems.esp
98 62 Disenchanting.esp
99 63 DragonBornCircletsComplete.esp
100 64 Moonlight Tales Special Edition.esp
101 65 Masters of Death.esp
102 66 RLO - Effects.esp
103 67 RLO - VIS Patch.esp
104 68 dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Realistic.esp
105 69 Differently Ebony.esp
106 6a RLO - Illuminated Spells.esp
107 6b private_singular_quivers.esp
108 6c GoToBed.esp
109 6d Hothtrooper44_Armor_Ecksstra.esp
110 6e dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Medium.esp
111 6f dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Reduced.esp
112 70 Better Vampires.esp
113 71 RealisticWaterTwo.esp
254 FE 5 RealisticWaterTwo - Watercolor.esp
114 72 WICO - Immersive Character.esp
115 73 WICO - Immersive Dawnguard.esp
116 74 WICO - Immersive People.esp
117 75 WICO - Wild Hunt Gears.esp
118 76 Bijin_AIO 2018.esp
Bijin Warmaidens.esp
Bijin Wives.esp
Bijin NPCs.esp
119 77 WACCF_BashedPatchLvlListFix.esp
120 78 Bashed Patch, 0.esp

[DarkestLight]

To properly diagnose that type of face discoloration you will either need to find the combination of mods causing your issue with xEdit or by troubleshooting your load order on a vanilla save. The face discoloration bug is caused by a mismatch between FaceGen data and what the game expects based on the last ESM/ESP to edit an object. xEdit can quickly show you what mods edit Amren by loading all your mods and searching his base ID (13BAA). The trouble is that editing head parts, races and god knows what else can also cause face discoloration bugs. The mod responsible may not have even touched Amren, and thus be very hard to track down in xEdit. Its still worth a look in xEdit before resorting to load order troubleshooting though. To fix your issue you may need the Creation Kit, it depends on if you can fix your issue by editing your load order or if you need to load a combination of mods and export new FaceGen data with the CK.

With a load order that big and no obvious causes (vanilla hair replacers, unless I missed one in your load order) the chances of someone else being able to spot the problem are slim. You are either going to need to do some work or...

Install Face Discoloration Fix[www.nexusmods.com] as well as its requirements if you don't already have them, Address Library for SKSE Plugins and SKSE64.

Be sure to read the to the remarks, particularly: "NPC appearance overhauls that use custom sculpts and custom textures are safe to use with this mod installed, but if you have a conflict in your load order that breaks those mods, this mod will not be able to restore the intended appearance. It will only fix the discoloration."

IE: Load order is still important for anyone using Bijin, Pandorable, etc.

[Snailman]

Originally posted by DarkestLight:

To properly diagnose that type of face discoloration you will either need to find the combination of mods causing your issue with xEdit or by troubleshooting your load order on a vanilla save. The face discoloration bug is caused by a mismatch between FaceGen data and what the game expects based on the last ESM/ESP to edit an object. xEdit can quickly show you what mods edit Amren by loading all your mods and searching his base ID (13BAA). The trouble is that editing head parts, races and god knows what else can also cause face discoloration bugs. The mod responsible may not have even touched Amren, and thus be very hard to track down in xEdit. Its still worth a look in xEdit before resorting to load order troubleshooting though. To fix your issue you may need the Creation Kit, it depends on if you can fix your issue by editing your load order or if you need to load a combination of mods and export new FaceGen data with the CK.

With a load order that big and no obvious causes (vanilla hair replacers, unless I missed one in your load order) the chances of someone else being able to spot the problem are slim. You are either going to need to do some work or...

Install Face Discoloration Fix[www.nexusmods.com] as well as its requirements if you don't already have them, Address Library for SKSE Plugins and SKSE64.

Be sure to read the to the remarks, particularly: "NPC appearance overhauls that use custom sculpts and custom textures are safe to use with this mod installed, but if you have a conflict in your load order that breaks those mods, this mod will not be able to restore the intended appearance. It will only fix the discoloration."

IE: Load order is still important for anyone using Bijin, Pandorable, etc.

you are amazing man, the mod fixed it, finally . thank you so much

[smr1957]

Snailman, glad that it is fixed - yes that mod is amazing if you do not want to actually troubleshoot and it is only one or two NPCs.

However, I have to ask if you sorted that load order and applied the results, as there are a number of mods that look to be loaded in the wrong place,

Another thing I see is an .esp for a 144 FPS fix from this mod: Over 60 FPS Physics fix. Let me state here that there is NO SUCH THING as an over 60 FPS fix. On an extended playthrough, things WILL break, as it is not just the visual that is effected by the FPS - EVERYTHING in the game is tied to it. While it is your game to do as you wish with, I STRONGLY suggest that you read this first (Specifically, the second link):
FPS can't exceed 60
https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/2561864094345033643/?tscn=1526053394#c2561864094345056812

And for a more detailed discussion of the FPS issue, see:
Getting the game above 60hz [FPS] is it possible? - https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/5251727781289359246/

And, know, that should you exceed 60 FPS and encounter any issues in your game due to bugs, glitches, or any other unusual occurrences, we will NOT be able to help you - except to say: Start a new game, this time with FPS capped to 60.

Now.
Going to nitpick on you DarlkestLight (just a little bit).
First, Amren ID is 138AA - LOL! those Bs and 8s tend to look the same when you stare at them!
Second, the mod responsible for the darkface issue will most definitely touch upon that NPC - if it did not, there would be no darkface bug. And, this is immediately apparent in xEdit when you look at the RH pane. It is there that you will see what records are being edited by the mod - if any. Usually, the dark face is caused because Mod A, which edits the records with new Head Parts, Head Textures, Texture Lighting, Face Morph, Face Parts, and Tint Layers and supplies the FaceGenData files that are meant to work with those, is being overwritten by a mod that is just changing the .esp records, thus causing a disconnect between the records as given to the game by the .esp, and the FaceGenData files that were installed by Mod A - whose .esp records have now been overwritten. (This is almost 100% of the time because the last loading mod is just including the vanilla records - almost, because if a person is mixing and matching - which is not recommended if one is not experienced in doing so - then you can also have other FaceGenData files thrown into the mix as well.) This is why the issue is almost 100% of the time due to load order - which is ALWAYS important, no matter what mods a person may be using.

Because of this, a person would just about never have to use the CK to fix these issues - unless you don't know how to use xEdit - and that's possible, as there are some people very proficient with the use of the CK and not xEdit, and vice versa.

I will add this finally - this is one of the things that points out the important of just adding a few mods at a time and testing, saving as you go - doing so avoids the vast majority of problems that we run up against in the forum.

[DarkestLight]

Originally posted by smr1957:

Second, the mod responsible for the darkface issue will most definitely touch upon that NPC - if it did not, there would be no darkface bug.

Actually no. Shiva's Vanilla hair replacer is infamous for causing dark face bugs on ANY NPC dependent on vanilla hairs. Even non vanilla NPCs added by other mods such as ETaC. The only fix in these cases is to export FaceGen with Shiva's loaded and the other mod set as active. It even borks some stand alone followers, because you cannot simply export FaceGen data in most of these cases you can tweak their (custom) race by removing the default hair to fix these mods (DO NOT MAKE THIS CHANGE TO VANILLA RACES).

Trust me on this, I've made a lot of FaceGen for that mod and fixed quite a few followers for it too. (Or look at the Shiva's Vanilla Hair Replacer[www.nexusmods.com] page if you don't trust me, they detail the process for creating FaceGen for other mods in the posts section)

You are quite correct that the culprit USUALLY touches the NPC. But not always.

Originally posted by smr1957:

First, Amren ID is 138AA - LOL! those Bs and 8s tend to look the same when you stare at them!

Nope, hes def 13BAA. I just looked him up in xEdit.

[smr1957]

Crap - I did say the 8 and the B look the same - LOL! I really get that problem when going through long lists of records.

HOWEVER:
As to Shiva's hair, it IS touching upon those NPCs - though indirectly and not by name. It is replacing the FaceGenData files - as can be seen by opening up the mod. And, in xEdit, the .esp is changing the Head Part records (LH pane) and the records in the RH pane - Model, Extra Parts, Parts - and these are the things that will cause darkface. So yes, when you open it in xEdit, it is readily apparent:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2389433452
In the above case, the solution would be simple - move Shiva so that it is higher in the order than the other mod; or carry over the mod's records into Shiva; or make a patch.

And, the cause, even if you load the mod being overwritten after Shiva, is also due to the fact of how the mods were installed.

Shiva would need to be installed first (it is a base mod) and any other mod changing NPCs would need to be loaded after, with all its files overwriting Shiva - if a person installs the mods properly there will be NO dark face issue. The issue comes from when people do not do the installation properly, and do not know how to use xEdit to its fullest extent.

Part of installing mods is not just only looking at xEdit, which does show things, it is also looking at what is contained in the mod's files, as well - which sometime requires opening up any BSAs to see exactly what is in them.

Doing all these things is why I never have these problems in my builds. So yes, not just one thing may indicate everything, but no experienced individual should be relying on just one thing.

(And I was hoping to get away without a long dissertation - LOL!)

[DarkestLight]

Originally posted by smr1957:

It is replacing the FaceGenData files - as can be seen by opening up the mod. And, in xEdit, the .esp is changing the Head Part records (LH pane) and the records in the RH pane - Model, Extra Parts, Parts - and these are the things that will cause darkface.

You are misunderstanding WHY Shiva's includes FaceGen data. Without the FaceGen data provided ALL vanilla NPCs would have dark face bugs. Even with it, ANY NPC that uses vanilla hair (edited by Shiva) needs new FaceGen in order to not have the dark face bug.

Originally posted by smr1957:

So yes, when you open it in xEdit, it is readily apparent:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2389433452
In the above case, the solution would be simple - move Shiva so that it is higher in the order than the other mod; or carry over the mod's records into Shiva; or make a patch.

And, the cause, even if you load the mod being overwritten after Shiva, is also due to the fact of how the mods were installed.

Shiva's dark face bugs CANNOT be fixed by load order. You can try if you like, but the engine freaks out because the head parts Shiva's change do not match the expected head parts in the FaceGen. Because neither Shiva's nor another mod that may edit a vanilla NPCs appearance has FaceGen data 100% appropriate for the other mod WITH Shiva's head parts, the only way to fix this is with new FaceGen. If no patch already exists, the only way to make that FaceGen is with the CK.

Example: Immersive College of Winterhold needs a Shiva's "patch". That patch is JUST FaceGen data without any sort of esp. That FaceGen data was made by having Shiva's loaded in the CK and Immersive College of Winterhold active. This cannot be sorted by load order as these two mods have no (esp) conflict. This cannot be fixed by conflict resolution as Immersive College of Winterhold's FaceGen will dark face bug, and Shiva's vanilla based FaceGen will dark face bug. You NEED the patch.

Example 2: Expanded Towns and Cities also needs a "patch" (again, just generated FaceGen with the CK, no esp). As does every other mod that adds NPCs using vanilla hair. These mods cannot possibly conflict with Shiva's directly as there is no asset conflict, Shiva's does not include FaceGen for them. There is also no esp conflict. THE ONLY FIX IS TO USE THE CK TO GENERATE NEW FaceGen (or uninstall Shiva's, but exporting FaceGen really isn't that hard). All of the patches on the Shiva's page were made this way.

Originally posted by smr1957:

As to Shiva's hair, it IS touching upon those NPCs - though indirectly and not by name.

That's more or less what I said (or tried to say if it wasn't 100% clear). You could not simply find these interactions in xEdit because Shiva's is editing a head part and not an NPC. You don't immediately know where to start looking if no mod is editing the NPC in question. If editing one head part can cause dark face bugs then editing other head parts probably can too.

I could easily find any of these issues on my own machine. If I even had these issues, I don't as I fixed them all long before Face Discoloration Fix was a thing. I still don't use that mod as I prefer to fix dark face bugs rather then hide them (not throwing shade at the mod, its a really good mod). Helping someone else find complex causes for dark face bugs over a forum is another story entirely.

[smr1957]

Well, yes, you do know where to start looking - if you are using a mod that is so unique (like Shiva's) that all the standard rules do not apply, then that is the first place to look. Also, these things show up in xEdit when using the apply filter (which is how I found it). As to issues with Shiva causing dark face due to the way it is made - well, if you do need to use CK to fix things because a mod is breaking them - (and a mod that as a direct byproduct of its use may cause dark face most definitely is breaking things) then maybe people should dump the mod? Unless this is actually a rare occurrence with Shiva (though from reading the Post section, it is would seem not to be).

So , yes, you are right - using a mod that is the exception to all rules and all expectations may not be fixable in xEdit or with surgical adjusting of files. But good modding practice would then suggest not to use that mod in a more complex build. So, to paraphrase what I often say: No matter how good a mod may look or sound, no matter how much you may really want a mod, if the mod ... causes issues in your game, dump the mod.

It is entirely possible (in fact, a certainty, based upon the info you have provided about this particular mod), that my ignorance of this one mod where what is usual does not apply, amongst all the thousands of others where it does, will cause me to make further mistakes as to what is needed to make this one mod work in a build.

With that being said, and since I do not use Shiva's hair (nor would I ever), and so do not actually have direct experience with it (nor would I want to after all I have just read and learned about it - I knew there was a reason I originally skipped over it when scanning Nexus mods), I will shut up now - LOL!

[DarkestLight]

Originally posted by smr1957:

With that being said, and since I do not use Shiva's hair (nor would I ever)...

I certainly understand that sentiment, and know a lot of people feel that way. The way I see it is there is no easier way to replace ALL vanilla hair, for both mod added and vanilla NPCs. I really don't like vanilla hair so for me the gains significantly outweigh the costs. Every once in a while when I add a new mod I have to export some FaceGen data, its really not much trouble.

Originally posted by smr1957:

...and so do not actually have direct experience with it...

I'm actually kind of glad we had this conversation. You were also willing to engage and hear me out, so thanks. Hopefully this will prove a tad bit useful for others. A lot of people don't understand how troublesome it can be to track down a dark face bug. Its important to remember you can't always write it off as a load order issue. It usually is a load order issue, but not always.

Originally posted by smr1957:

Shiva causing dark face due to the way it is made - well, if you do need to use CK to fix things because a mod is breaking them - (and a mod that as a direct byproduct of its use causes dark face most definitely is breaking things) then maybe people should dump the mod?

Shiva's is causing dark face bugs because of the way SSE is made. It really should not be, as evident by Face Discoloration Fix's existence. The only way Shiva could improve the mod is by making Bethesda's engine stop freaking out so easily over headpart data, even Face Discoloration Fix does not do that. It just makes the FaceGen generated in game NOT bug out.

No one should throw any shade at Shiva as the mod works, if you are willing to make it work by taking a couple of extra steps to export FaceGen data. And now with Face Discoloration Fix its even easier to use, albeit you might increase load times being over reliant on Face Discoloration Fix. And as always (@ the general public) load order is still important!!!

Originally posted by smr1957:

Well, yes, you do know where to start looking - if you are using a mod that is so unique (like Shiva's) that all the standard rules do not apply, then that is the first place to look. Also, these things show up in xEdit when using the apply filter (which is how I found it).

I used Shiva's as an example because its well documented (to support my claims) and I understand it and have experience with it so I can explain why it breaks things. The issue is probably not unique to Shiva's though. We know it can happen, so the question becomes what other mod combinations can cause these issues? I am convinced that there are rare issues in other mods, or other combinations of mods that produce similar, pain in the ass to track down, dark face bugs.

Unfortunately I don't have access to the other peoples data that I've failed to help, but if they did everything I told them to correctly then the issues were neither load order related or using the wrong assets. (I've failed to assist a few people with problems like generic vampires having dark face bugs, etc) Without being able to reproduce and examine such issues, I honestly have no idea where to start looking for something like that (over a forum on someone else's load order).

[smr1957]

Yes, Darkest, there are times in the forums where having these discussions really help, and bring up things that are new due to the fact of just never having used a particular mod.

Now, if there are problems with someone having dark face, and I see they are using Shiva's mod, I will know that the usual rules don't apply, and won't waste their time by telling them things that do not work or do not apply to that situation.

Am copying your posts to my personal notes (with the links) so that I will have them handy should the issue appear in the forums.

[DarkestLight]

Just to inform people, there are 5 main causes of dark face bugs (listed from most to least likely). A fair number of people probably know of and understand the first two.

1: Load order not matching FaceGen due to improper load order. Adjust load order to fix.

2: Load order not matching FaceGen due to improper conflict resolution (wrong FaceGen data loaded). Vortex users need to adjust conflicting file settings to fix, MO2 users need to do something similar but I'm not familair enough with MO2 to walk people through it. NMM users can only fix this by reinstalling mods and choosing proper overrides during installation. (and please consider using another mod manager if your still using NMM...)

3: Load order not matching FaceGen due to loose files left behind from either NMM or manual installations. A Clean Install will fix this.

4: Load order not matching FaceGen due to loose files overriding FaceGen in a BSA. Either manually deleting the loose FaceGen or extracting the BSA with Cathedral Assets Optimizer[www.nexusmods.com] and using your mod managers conflict resolution will fix this. I recommend the second option as you won't accidentally delete something you weren't supposed to.

5: Unique interactions between mods such as, but not limited to, Shiva's Vanilla Hair Replacer. To fix Shiva's properly exporting new FaceGen following these steps[www.nexusmods.com] will be required (if a patch does not already exist). Face Discoloration Fix[www.nexusmods.com] will also fix all of these issues, but one should avoid overusing it as generating FaceGen in game does add to load time. If you simply can't find a cause use Face Discoloration Fix.

PS: Sorry for hijacking the thread.

[smr1957]

Originally posted by DarkestLight:

- snip -
PS: Sorry for hijacking the thread.

My apologies as well for sidetracking.

Though, it seems, more often than not, a lot of information is covered in the act of sidetracking, at times!