Mod Conflict Resolution for MO2

[DragonLord]

I need some advice. I am having some amount of difficulty with CTD's and odd bugs (textures, meshes, black face bug, etc.) and I was doing some research on it when I stumbled upon this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3pWLAm18sA

So I'm curious... In this video, he shows a method of "hiding" certain game files that are conflicting. I also know how to delete specific files. My main query is this: If I have two or more mods with conflicting files, can I just delete the files in the mod(s) that I don't care about? Let's say for instance that I have multiple NPC mods that affect Aela. She has the black face bug. If I were wanting to use the bijin warmaidens mod, could I just delete any other conflicting files from other mods? Would that make the game unstable or not?

[smr1957]

LOOT should only be used for sorting mods - it is not a diagnostic tool, and the information that it shows for other things are gotten from third parties and is not always correct. So, as far as LOOT is concerned, just use it for sorting - and nothing else.

The best way of making your mod list smaller is first, the classic way, which is just cutting back on mods - yes, it is hard, the kid in the candy store thing - you want it all but you are told you can only have a certain number - LOL! And then, there is using .esl files (which do not count towards the plugin limit) where you have an option instead of an.esp. Along those lines, some mods that use an .esp can be flagged as .esls. These are usually smaller mods which do not have many records in them. A good way to know which .esp mods can be flagged as .esls, is to open your load order in Wrye Bash. Those mods which are in green text can be .esl flagged. This can then be done using Wrye Bash - just right click on the mod which is in green text, and, from the drop down menu which appears, select Add ESL Flag. (It can also be done in xEdit, but it is probably easier to do in Wrye Bash, requiring less steps and easier to see which mods are eligible to be flagged as .esls.)

Finally as to crashing. If a save is corrupt, there is no fixing it - it is done for and cannot be fixed. And, as you found out, save file cleaner programs do not work, and never have (see the linked discussion at the end of this post). So, the thing to do is to test. First, to test, turning off mods is not the way to go - any bad info may have been baked into the save. The way to test is to start off with a vanilla save (or a save that only has the mods you absolutely know are safe) - one made where the CTDs occur so it is easy to test - and then add in groups of mods till you find the one causing the crash - making a manual save each time so you can roll back when the CTD occurs and zero in on the specific mod. And although that may be time consuming, often it is far better and quicker using that systematic approach than trying to guess willy-nilly which mod it is (unless one of us happens to spot a mod we know is a problem when you post a load order).

Second, once you do find which mod is causing the crash, and have removed it, you cannot continue using the same save, again due to how Skyrim bakes data into the save (and this data CANNOT be removed - despite what some may say) . You must either go back to a save made prior to having installed the removed/disabled mod, or start a new game. There is no other option - unless the mod is one of the exceptions mentioned in the below linked discussion. For complete info on this, see:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/1520386297681801135/

[smr1957]

Also, though I am very strong in cautioning against using xEdit if you do not know how to use it properly, the only way to learn is by hands on experience using it. So, I would say, just make sure that before you do anything, you make backups of all your esm /.esp /.esl files and place then in a separate folder on your desktop. Then play around with editing making sure that at the close of each session, you have the backup box checked - that way you will have 2 copies of the files as they were before you changed them - one in the folder on your desktop and then a back file of it in the SSEEdit Backups folder located in the game's Data folder.

Learning how to use xEdit is not something to be learned in a day, a week, or even a month - and some people never learn it - but it is well worth the effort and will pay off in the long run.

[DragonLord]

Yeah, but does that mean I shouldn't pay attention to any warnings LOOT gives? Also, flagging a mod as an .esl file doesn't make it one, right? I would still have to open up CK and make it an .esl right? Also about saves, if I lose a game to corruption, then it's over, but does that mean I can never just play the game? I mean, I'll have to be constantly make backup saves, right? And who's to say that it won't mess up again and again?

[smr1957]

Basically, just use LOOT for sorting - MO2 will tell you pretty much all you need (In fact, many people just use the built in sorter included with MO2 - which uses LOOT meta data and never use LOOT at all).

Here is the best place for information regarding .esls and their use: https://www.afkmods.com/index.php?/topic/5079-plugin-files-and-you-esmeslesp/
That was written by Arthmoor himself.

If a save is corrupt - that save is no longer good. Earlier saves may be, but you would need to know the reason for the save having been ruined. By the way, a corrupt save will have the game literally tell you that the save is corrupt - which means that the information within the save is scrambled or corrupted - which is completely different and distinct from a save causing a CTD or infinite load screen - in that, the save has all the information in the proper format, but it is information which, when the game processes it, causes the the game to crash due to the data which is being loaded containing incompatibilities or wrong information,or with infinite load screens, there is necessary data which was never included.

Anyway, it is important to determine the reasons for issues occurring or yes, they can occur again. Just another reason to start with a small load order and not add to it until you are completely sure it is 100% stable and CTD free.

And, you should always be making manual saves, even with a completely stable, CTD free game.

[isomorphic_projection]

smr1957님이 먼저 게시:

The only thing that a Bashed Patch should be used for is to handle the Leveled Lists.

i have a question about this. Cause i am learning to merge too. But i wait untill the next crash. But everytime the game runs great. But it's sometimes that and sometimes this. So a bashed patch, can make sure. Your list loads the same everytime, like you setted it up.

[smr1957]

isomorphic_projection님이 먼저 게시:

smr1957님이 먼저 게시:

The only thing that a Bashed Patch should be used for is to handle the Leveled Lists.

i have a question about this. Cause i am learning to merge too. But i wait untill the next crash. But everytime the game runs great. But it's sometimes that and sometimes this. So a bashed patch, can make sure. Your list loads the same everytime, like you setted it up.

No mods should be merged into the bashed patch, it should only be used for handling Leveled lists. Let me just quote some things. From Merging Plugins - https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/2264691750486479016/

"FAQ:

"When I start condensing, and fixing conflicts, in xEdit, couple questions:
Best practice, use WryeBash first to let it combine what it can in a bashed patch, then go to xEdit to get comfortably under the 255 limit?"

If you are merging mods, only use Wrye Bash to merge Leveled Lists - do NOT use it for the purpose of merging plugins - that should only be done using xEdit or the standalone Merge Plugins tool. However, should you find yourself merging with Wrye Bash, do it first and also be aware there is a major caveat: make sure that the mods that get merged into the Bashed Patch do not undo any changes another mod makes due to Bashed Patch being placed last. Perfect example is Tiwa Minidresses. They can be merged into the Bashed patch, but if you are using Modest Elderly, doing so will undo the changes that Modest elderly makes."


And:

"SOME THOUGHTS

A note about the Bashed Patch and an xEdit Merged:
While WB does a fairly decent job of handling leveled lists, it does make mistakes and leave things out that should be carried forward into the patch (an example of this is the meat pie - used to wonder why it was never in the game - Bashed Patch always left it out). So, even once you have made a Bashed Patch, you'll still want to check in xEdit to make should that your leveled list are being completely carried forward - if they are not, just drag the items over to the Bashed Patch or use copy record and copy it into the Bashed Patch.

As to an xEdit Merged file. If you are already editing records in xEdit yourself, I would strongly advise not use this. When I made one just out of curiosity as to what it would do (this was on my small mod load - the 760+ one), the xEdit merged file carried over all the things I did not want. xEdit merged should be used if you are not editing records yourself - technically it does a good job, but like all programs, it cannot think.

And one final, BIG caveat: All these things require experience. If you are unsure of something - DON'T DO IT. And if you lack experience, then keep things small."

[DragonLord]

Okay, but if your load order seems to be working and your game is running just fine, but then you suddenly get a corrupted save at level 50... What are you supposed to do? How can you tell what caused it? Was all the effort to get to that level for nothing?

[isomorphic_projection]

Thx for the answer. And yes i keep it small. Still i don't mind experimenting, i crashed to desktop 30 times when i started modding. But i know why it all crashed those 30 times. 4 weeks later, i am still playing build 31. I this one crashes, then i start untill then. I look at vids and read articles on how to merge and use wyrebash. Logical i know to place similar mod's under one merge. Like you showed in your mod list. But i really wish that there was some mod, that's locks the left pane too. I have a feeling that sometimes it skips a mod only to load it after the mod which supposed to load later. The result is. Sometimes i have whiterun skyland wood, and sometimes vanilla.

[DragonLord]

Also, I have a couple questions about the .esl files.
1. What are safe mod types to flag as .esl files? The smaller things that require little code I'm assuming based on that article. For example, probably retexture mods, npc replacers, maybe even new npcs? weapon and armor mods, etc. Am I correct in my assumption?

2. That article made it sound like all you have to do is go into xEdit and flag them as .esl so is that true? I thought you had to flag them, then convert the mod itself to an .esl?

3. If you do have to only flag the file as an .esl then how do you tell how many plugins you have active? I have a few flagged as .esl right now, but they still add to my plugin count according to MO2.

[smr1957]

DragonLord님이 먼저 게시:

Okay, but if your load order seems to be working and your game is running just fine, but then you suddenly get a corrupted save at level 50... What are you supposed to do? How can you tell what caused it? Was all the effort to get to that level for nothing?

Sometimes, it is not game related at all, it can be cause by something like a Windows update, or is just what can only be called a freak occurrence. If you have done nothing in the game to cause it (such as injudicious use of the console, or removing mods), then just roll back to a previous save - and hope it doesn't happen again.

[smr1957]

1. As indicated, once the mod is installed, and you load your order up into Wrye Bash, WB will indicate mods that are eligible to be turned into .esp by having their names appear in green text. And it is best not to assume - whether a mod can be flagged as an .esl is based upon the total number of records it has as well as other conditions outlined in Arthmoor post.

2. From that article by Arthmoor (note specifically those which I have place an asterisk next to):

"Other Information

Using ESL flagged files come with some important issues to consider:

You must be playing on a copy of SSE version 1.5.3 or newer in order to use ESL flagged files.

You must be using a copy of the SSE CK version 1.5.3 or higher in order to properly recognize these files for editing.

* The file cannot contain more than 2048 records in it or the form IDs will overflow into another FE slot and corrupt the save.

* Form IDs need to be compacted for the file to be considered valid. The CK has an option called "Compact Active File Form IDs" in the file menu. xEdit also has a function for this. When using either of these, PAY ATTENTION TO THE WARNINGS.

* You cannot compact IDs on a file you intend to continue using in an existing save or you WILL corrupt it due to the form IDs contained within it being rewritten. Only do this on files you have not yet begun using, and which do not yet exist as public releases.

* Other mods which reference form IDs in the mod you are compacting (compatiblity patches, script calls, etc) will break if you compact the form IDs on a mod that's been released to the public.

NMM does not work with files that have the .esl extension or carry an ESL flag. It has been reported to completely lock up if even one of these is present in your Data folder. Use a functional mod manager such as Wrye Bash to manage these types of mods.

If by some wierd twist of fate you end up with a ESL flagged file that's also ESM flagged and someone uses a standard .esp file as a master to it for some reason, that file will be forced to load into the wrong part of your setup. Normally a standard .esp file will never load before anything ESM flagged, this is the one exception to that now and it should be considered a bug to report to any mod's author who has done this.

* DO NOT attempt to patch anything inside of a CELL record that originates with a file flagged as ESL. Doing so will cause the cell to break and not load most of its contents when you enter it. This includes any official Creation Club content you may have. It doesn't matter who made the file, it will break.

* Mods that use the GetFormFromFile() function in their scripts to reference things within them cannot be compacted unless the scripts are also recompiled with the new form ID.
Mods using recorded voice lines or that include NPC facegen data cannot be compacted because all of those asset files will need to be manually renamed to match the new dialogue and NPC form IDs."


3. As to MO2, I believe that it gives a total plugin count, and a count of how many of those plugins actually count towards the limits and how many do not. I'll leave that to the MO2 users to answer.

[DragonLord]

Okay, so I have found what you were talking about. MO2's plugin counter on the right pane shows the various kinds of file types and their count if you mouse over it. My current count as I just flagged a bunch of them as .esl files through xEdit is 244 .esp and .esm files combined and 110 .esl files. So now my count is good I guess? Also, MO2's conflict box shows that bijin warmaidens (the only mod that I could think of that would be affecting Aela, making her have black face) is only conflicting with immersive fort dawnguard? That seems odd to me... Any thoughts? Also, how can I record any problems that happen in game? If I start a new game and want to troubleshoot any crashes or bugs, how do I do that? Also, when you say to make a hard save and back up the save file, do you just mean to go to the menu and click the save button, then go to the save on my C drive and copy it to somewhere else?

[smr1957]

Last first. Yes, a hard save is when you go to the menu and click the save button - and do not overwrite any previous ones but make a new save. And, as a backup, copy and save some of them to a separate file in another location on your PC.

As to troubleshooting, it would be done by adding mods in a few at a time, or, adding in all the mods you know to be safe, and then adding new ones in a few at a time, and playtesting - which is basically playing the game, but concentrating on any potentially prone to trouble areas. Basically, testing for potential problems is pretty much the same as troubleshooting, as I described in the last two paragraphs of post #16 -
https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/2999921513800278152/?tscn=1604684873#c2999921513805051775

This does not always catch 100% of the issues, but it will, at least, in most cases, catch the major ones.

As to the black face issue with Aela, open your build in xEdit and see if anything is overwriting her record - MO2 may not pick up all issues. Also, sometimes mods which do not actually touch NPCs can have NPC records in them - and thus end up overwriting previous instances of an NPC - producing the blackface.

Finally, yes, your count is good to go - that is great!

[DragonLord]

Okay, so a kind of disturbing turn of events, upon inspecting bijin warmaidens in xEdit, it seems that the problems are deeper than I originally thought. Look at this: https://ibb.co/Sxs4ftx
There don't seem to be any other problems except for one or two elsewhere, but the actor section appears to have a lot of issues. What should I do from here?

[DragonLord]

It sounds like backing up saves all the time would be kind of a pain though. I get that it's necessary, it's just kind of a shame. Well, based on the mods I have, which ones would you trust completely to be safe?