Why destruction magic is bad.

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Don't get me wrong, I love playing mage in Skyrim, but this school is actually going to leave a bad aftertaste in the mouth of most new players (even 8 years after the game's release).

All other combat trees not only increase their relative weapon damage with each point of increase in the tree, they also have an overall 100% boost to damage through perks. Destruction is limited to 50% (and per element nonetheless). This might already look bad, but combine this with the fact that you can enchant your equipment with +40% (or more) damage per 4 piece enchantment set, for a total minimum of +160% damage increase per any weapon class in the game, which also share the same damage scaling potion levels through alchemy... then factor in the fact that casting spells will require magicka management and that master level spells need a lot of time to charge... while swinging a sword, axe, or mace is not only faster, but it doesn't even require stamina unless you want to power attack, and the fact that swords can cirt, and that maces can ignore armor, and the fact that weapon enchantments benefit from destruction spells more than the actual spells benefit from them (especially with chaos enchantments which absolutely dwarf spellcasting)... also with the fact that going for weapons means you don't need to forgo armour (as most ingame magica reduction apparel is robes), nor do you need to sacrifice a beneficial enchantment slot since there isn't a single Destruction magic damage enhancing enchantment in the game and magicka cost reduction for the poorest DPS source in the game by a large margin is counter productive.... Destruction starts to appear like the most worthless and useless combat class that has no appeal aside from role-playing.

The experience of a Destruction mage is absolutely, objectively, horrible. You're better off investing all your points in health, and maybe some stamina if you want the quality of life benefits of increased sprinting duration and carry capacity. Also, destruction is extremely slower than all other trees to level.

All players will default to conjuration for 2 Dremora Lords for a decent mage playthrough, since it doesn't even take that long to level up, and the cast time is significantly shorter. Also, the conjuration ritual spell quest is not as poorly implemented as the Destruction one with its ridiculous puzzles, and it's much more interesting with the Dremora dialogue. You can almost feel that the team in charge of Destruction magic was just half-assing it as the ritual quest has no mystery and no context to it, even the areas where you need to charge the book of elements look like they were last minute mini dungeon implementations.

In contrast, support school like restoration and illusion are pretty great. Restoration is always great when you're in a pinch irrespective of play style, and illusion is absolutely awesome for thieves and assassins as long as you invest a point in silent casting.

The take away is this: in TES VI, please, don't make Destruction bad, it's supposed to be the most overpowered glass canon combat tree that rewards you for investing into it instead of punishing you. Magic is supposed to deal SIGNIFICANTLY MORE damage.

[Eternal President Uncle Slam]

Magic isn't bad, melee and ranged are just op. More accurately enchanting+smithing+alchemy are op and have less effect on magic users. That said if you try to play a pure destruction only mage then of course its going to suck. Mages need to use all schools of magic in order to compete against the thief and warrior archetypes. It would be like playing a warrior without heavy armor or a thief without sneak. Illusion magic alone can make mages steamroll through the game and alteration can give you 80% damage resistance(same max damage resistance as wearing armor).

Once the unholy infusion of enchanting+alchemy+smithing happens warrior and thief get such high damage that they can 1 shot literally any enemy, but that doesn't mean destruction is bad. Up until that point destruction magic can keep up with the damage and with enchantments it can infinitely stun lock any enemy. With alchemy and enchanting you can make fortify destruction potions that boost damage by 150%+ which is way more then enough damage to beat skyrim on legendary. It takes like 5 dual casted incinerates at that damage to kill the Ebony warrior on legendary difficulty. The hardest enemy in the game dies in around 5 hits, cant attack back because he is stunlocked, is surrounded by an army of daedra that he would prioritize if he could attack, and can't see his enemy because they go invisible if he manages to break free. Mage is fine!

Bethesda was smart not to allow mages to benefit as much from the unholy trinity. They would have been disgustingly strong if they could have damage into the 1000s on top of all their other spells. Next game they need to put a damage cap on bows and melee weapons(similar to fallout 4) so all three classes deal comparable damage.

[GrimCat]

I like mods.

[Perplex]

Destruction is the most OP and broken thing in this game (after Enchanting).

[jreese46]

Originally posted by Perplex:

Destruction is the most OP and broken thing in this game (after Enchanting).

Not really. If you had a lightning bolt that did 300 damage, in line with what your legendary sword might do, then you might be verging into OP territory, but there is absolutely nothing OP about wasting time with 30+ lightning bolts to take down one enemy, just because they're now free to cast.

[jreese46]

Originally posted by udUbdaWgz:

yes, mods fix vanilla skyrim

100%

[lizrdfishr]

Originally posted by jreese46:

Originally posted by udUbdaWgz:

yes, mods fix vanilla skyrim

100%

Just for grins, can you name a few that fix this 'glitch'?

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Originally posted by Grim Dolo:

I like mods.

I'm not taking mods into account, because the Vanilla experience is what you usually should consider, especially since XBOX and PS don't have the same luxury that PC players have, including console commands that fix bugs. Plus, using mods with SE will prevent you from getting achievements, and while not everyone cares, chasing after achievements is part of the overall player experience.

Originally posted by Perplex:

Destruction is the most OP and broken thing in this game (after Enchanting).

Anything can be OP with the proper set-up in Skyrim, however, if you do play legendary difficulty, you'll get a general perspective of how limited Destruction damage actually is, especially when you take into account that you'll need to invest a lot more in it than anything else.

Originally posted by lizrdfishr:

Originally posted by jreese46:

100%

Just for grins, can you name a few that fix this 'glitch'?

Ordinator

Forgotten Magic

Apocalypse – Magic of Skyrim

Elemental Destruction Magic

Spellmaking in Skyrim – The Last Altar

Skysunder Metamagics

Are all mods that make magic more fun, but as mentioned above, we shouldn't replying on mods to improve the vanilla experience. That's just giving the devs an excuse to under-perform.

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Originally posted by Eternal President Uncle Slam:

Magic isn't bad, melee and ranged are just op. More accurately enchanting+smithing+alchemy are op and have less effect on magic users. That said if you try to play a pure destruction only mage then of course its going to suck. Mages need to use all schools of magic in order to compete against the thief and warrior archetypes. It would be like playing a warrior without heavy armor or a thief without sneak. Illusion magic alone can make mages steamroll through the game and alteration can give you 80% damage resistance(same max damage resistance as wearing armor).

Once the unholy infusion of enchanting+alchemy+smithing happens warrior and thief get such high damage that they can 1 shot literally any enemy, but that doesn't mean destruction is bad. Up until that point destruction magic can keep up with the damage and with enchantments it can infinitely stun lock any enemy. With alchemy and enchanting you can make fortify destruction potions that boost damage by 150%+ which is way more then enough damage to beat skyrim on legendary. It takes like 5 dual casted incinerates at that damage to kill the Ebony warrior on legendary difficulty. The hardest enemy in the game dies in around 5 hits, cant attack back because he is stunlocked, is surrounded by an army of daedra that he would prioritize if he could attack, and can't see his enemy because they go invisible if he manages to break free. Mage is fine!

Bethesda was smart not to allow mages to benefit as much from the unholy trinity. They would have been disgustingly strong if they could have damage into the 1000s on top of all their other spells. Next game they need to put a damage cap on bows and melee weapons(similar to fallout 4) so all three classes deal comparable damage.

I disagree with so much of this but I'll refrain from making this thread a philosophical debate and instead focus on just 1 aspect which is immersion.

It was clear through Shalidor's Insights that fortify destruction damage is not something that is out of the realm of possibility.

All what Bethesda needed to do was:

1- Make destruction damage fortification possible through enchantment, even at +15% per piece enchantment as opposed to the +40% of the weapons would have been fine. Of course +25% magicka reduction with 25+% damage increase would have been ideal. (40% even better)

2- Even if they forwent the destruction damage fortification enchantment, they could have added resistance reducing spells to circumvent the fact that some enemies will have 100% resistance to an element that you may have chosen. It makes no sense for a mage to use a bow, sword, or dagger, to poison an enemy and then cast a spell on them.

Also, illusion, restoration and alteration are all support trees that can benefit any tree, not just destruction mages. Pointless to argue that you need to invest in this for the wholesome mage experience. Sneak, in spite of that, is self-sufficient, and one-handed, two-handed and bows, are also self-sufficient.... BECAUSE CRITS. The perks of Destruction mages are just weak. Overcharge consumes 40% more mana for a 2.2 multiplier .... Look, even if Bethesda made the overcharge multiplier around 4.4 or 5.5 (and I'm fine with that option being only unlockable at skill level 90) times, destruction would have been ok.

It simply feels like they did their best to make destruction feel tedious and underwhelming.

[RecklesFlam1ngo]

Apocalypse and Ordinator mods say hi :)

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Originally posted by RecklesFlam1ngo:

Apocalypse and Ordinator mods say hi :)

Ignoring most of the thread's comments say what's up?

[lizrdfishr]

I concur with OP, Destruction magic is pretty meh. Ordinator seems to be the one that gets recommended as a fix but I just didn't see the value.

Ordinator is a perk overhaul. It complicated every aspect of the game.

Don't mess with my thieving! ;)

The rest of the list is getting downloaded today along with some sound and music mods I have been wanting to try out.

Forgotten Magic

Apocalypse – Magic of Skyrim

Elemental Destruction Magic

Spellmaking in Skyrim – The Last Altar

Skysunder Metamagics

Thank you Silencer for the list.

As for mods or devs, I am grateful to both for the part they play and I hope we keep and cherish both. I am a bit leery of CC right now but maybe they can convince me.

[GrimCat]

Originally posted by lizrdfishr:

I concur with OP, Destruction magic is pretty meh. Ordinator seems to be the one that gets recommended as a fix but I just didn't see the value.

Ordinator is a perk overhaul. It complicated every aspect of the game. Don't mess with my thieving! ;)

I came into this thread hoping to find recommendations for something else specifically since Ordinator seems to be the one that gets recommended most.

The rest of the list is getting downloaded today along with some sound and music mods I have been wanting to try out.

Forgotten Magic

Apocalypse – Magic of Skyrim

Elemental Destruction Magic

Spellmaking in Skyrim – The Last Altar

Skysunder Metamagics

Thank you Silencer for the list.

As for mods or devs, I am grateful to both for the part they play and I hope we keep and cherish both. I am a bit leery of CC right now but maybe they can convince me.

There are other perk overhauls out there that aren't as massive as Ordinator, but still help out.
I'm just drawing a blank on their names atm.

[lizrdfishr]

Guess NWN spoiled me.

I miss the Magic Missile and the Missile Storm spells. I could never have plumbed the depths of the Demon Web Pits without the Open Lock spell to unlock doors and chests. And what sorcerer could face the wrath of Lolth herself without a solid Prismatic Sphere?

AD&D has a deep and wide catalog of spells. Skyrim, IMO, just needs to delve deeper into the existing catalog and bring them into the new century in a way that keeps the balance of play.

One more glaring omission in Skryim... The Portable Hole. Remember that time Garath the Thief sneaked into the Hall of the Fire Giant King and dropped one in the path of Snurre Iron Belly? I took out the lights with a Darkness spell and Snurre fell right in. We just picked it up with Snurre in it and tossed it into the Abyss.

That'll teach him to torch my familiar.

Modders have a longer memory than the younglings at Beth and Microstuffit. We need them, lest we end up with magic spells that do nothing but hand out participation medals and grant a monthly stipend.

[DScales2k]

Tough talk for a fella in Chain Lightning range

[Perplex]

Originally posted by jreese46:

Originally posted by Perplex:

Destruction is the most OP and broken thing in this game (after Enchanting).

Not really. If you had a lightning bolt that did 300 damage, in line with what your legendary sword might do, then you might be verging into OP territory, but there is absolutely nothing OP about wasting time with 30+ lightning bolts to take down one enemy, just because they're now free to cast.

I usualy play without enchantment as it breaks the game. Destruction is hands down the most OP skill in the game without the help of Enchanting. You can get close to 100% cost reduction anyway.

If you use the mod Armor Perk Overhaul it is even easier as it put Heavy and Light Armor in to one category "Armor" and and creates a new category named "Robes" where cloth and some former light armors are added to and perks helping with spellcasting.