“What is better ? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?”

[cl656]

Paarthurnax says this, but is it even possible?

You look at the story of the Dragonborns, who share the same nature as the Dragons, and they tend to be tales about a hero with good intentions, but ultimately, they are a slave to the Dragon nature inside of them in the end, and that nature ends up leading them into tragedy

Tiber Septim conquered a continent, which no doubt may have encouraged the assassination attempt on his life, that resulted in his throat being cut, and him having a disability the rest of his life. Miraak ends up being a slave to Mora. While our character, the last dragonborn(LDB), is drawn to Miraak and Mora in a quest for even more power. the Dragonborn dlc even makes a point, that no matter our reasons for going there, in the end, it is just for knowledge and power.

Now back to Paarthurnax. he becomes the leader of a powerful group of wizards, powerful enough to destroy the world with their voice. Then if you let him live, he becomes the leader of the remaining Dragons. He is obviously still being guided by his nature. He isn't really overcoming anything, simply channeling it in a more positive manner, which could be temporary.

What do you think?

[Ricochet]

interesting thinking mate

[fauxpas]

I agree, which is why my Last Dragonborn does the only moral and proper thing, she slays Paar with a heavy heart and half blinded from the flowing tears.

As the only person capable of permanently killing a dragon its her duty to save the children of her children.

[Mieumieu]

Is anybody born good? If we're talking about real humans, we're all born with desires that are good and bad. In this game, I don't know enough about the lore to know if being born under a certain sign has an affect on one's alignment. I know for Khajiit it can greatly affect their entire body as a form, but I don't know about mentally if there is any lore supporting that people are born good or bad.

If you are evil and turn things around, should you be forgiven? I guess it depends on the nature of that evil. There is justice that needs to be served. It also depends on how truly you feel their heart has turned.

I wish I could take more part in this, as I do really enjoy pretending this is a real world and getting into discussions about the things happening in it (and for all I know, it could be!), but it's going over a bunch of stuff I haven't played yet in game :D I've put off the main quest as I've ran around doing all sorts of other stuff. I did the Dawnguard DLC but not the Dragonborn one, yet.

Still I wanted to reply a little :P

If this discussion is still poking around after I've gone through this stuff I'll peek back in. I am doing a bit more of the main quest line right now.

[Apathetic]

What do you do when there is an evil you cannot defeat by just means? Do you stain your hands with evil to destroy evil? Or do you remain steadfastly just and righteous even if it means surrendering to evil?

Either way evil remains.

[GrimCat]

You forgot to include the part that the Greybeards *could* use the Voice to cause much destruction and yet they teach against it. Because, like Paarth, they a pacifists. There's also no indication that the Greybeards are wizards. Being able to use the Voice doesn't make one a wizard.

I haven't seen anything that says Paarth becomes the leader of the remaining dragons.

"Paarthurnax then speaks of his intent on bringing the "Way of the Voice" to all dragons and flies off." Not sure it's draconic nature to lead a band of pacifists.

Paarth had plenty of time to rise to real power had he wanted to. Instead, he decided to hang out on a mountain top in peaceful contemplation.

"As with all Dragons, the lust for power was innate and still strong within him and if left unchecked, he would surely revert to his old ways. To overcome this, he retired to the peak of the Throat of the World and lived in seclusion so that he could meditate and focus on the Way of the Voice, a pacifist creed developed by Jurgen Windcaller that preached the Thu'um should only be used for the worship and glory of the gods rather than martial exploits."

You say he's still guided by his nature, but give no actual examples.

[@%thesock10150alpha49]

Don't be fooled. Paarth was playing the long con the whole time.

-He couldn't beat Alduin, so he helped banish him.

-He knew that Alduin would reappear, so he took the time to raise mortals to hopefully do the work for him.

-He played the good guy, so the dragonborn will leave him alone until they die, which is only a small amount of time for a dragon.

-He directly controls the only organization that would carry the knowledge of his weaknesses once the DB dies.

Every move Alduin makes seems good, but also puts him at a serious advantage to rule the skies once the DB is out of the picture. Even if he isn't evil when we interact with him, the opportunity will be too great later on down the line. Left alive, Paarthurnax will become a great threat at some point.

[lukandroll]

Well, the greybeards taught Ulfric the way of the voice, for what? Killing Torygg in a cowardly move?
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but they also taught Tiber Septim, and we all know what he did with numidium, on top of other ♥♥♥♥♥ ups
Its a matter of how you use that power
Its kind of a cliche, but power leads to wanting to have more, and that's a rabbit hole in several fictional "heroes"
Also, the more power you have, the more you start to think that all that you think and do, is right, and that's a big ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lie, we all make mistakes
So, power, dangerous
My current character has started to experience the corruption that power brings, and I don't know if he has the balls to walk away from it, I have hope for him though

[Valden21]

Originally posted by @%thesock10150alpha49:

Don't be fooled. Paarth was playing the long con the whole time.

-He couldn't beat Alduin, so he helped banish him.

-He knew that Alduin would reappear, so he took the time to raise mortals to hopefully do the work for him.

-He played the good guy, so the dragonborn will leave him alone until they die, which is only a small amount of time for a dragon.

-He directly controls the only organization that would carry the knowledge of his weaknesses once the DB dies.

Every move Alduin makes seems good, but also puts him at a serious advantage to rule the skies once the DB is out of the picture. Even if he isn't evil when we interact with him, the opportunity will be too great later on down the line. Left alive, Paarthurnax will become a great threat at some point.

I'm not sure about that. According to UESP, Paarthurnax's viewpoint changed after an encounter with Kynareth, and it's directly implied that she did something to him that caused that change. Kynareth's one of the most powerful of the Aedra, second only to, if not on par with, Akatosh himself, so Paarthurnax's change in viewpoint's got a LOT of power behind it. Furthermore, Paarthurnax also tells us that he fights against those urges every single day, and has been doing so since the Dragon War. So far, he's been successful. Considering how long ago that was, I think it's safe to way that he's not gonna go an any rampages soon. It says a lot about his willpower that he HAS been able to resist that long.

[Halcyform]

Good and Evil are relative concepts.

[HazakTheMad]

No one is born good or evil, it is are actions that decide that.

[fauxpas]

For an immortal being to whom death itself is temporary unless eaten by the Dragonborn losing that battle is inevitable.

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by HazakTheMad:

No one is born good or evil, it is are actions that decide that.

That is true of mortal souls with free will.

Dragons are spirits made flesh and do not have unfettered free will.

[Vlad 254]

All very good points. That's why, as a mod user I eventually went to mods for this. Arthmoor did an excellent job with his Paarthurnax Dilemma[www.nexusmods.com] mod. But there is a new fully voiced mod ( Paarthurnax - Quest Expansion[www.nexusmods.com] ) that allows you to make your own choice and continue the game seamlessly afterward.

OP's points and the reply's to the OP are exactly why I use the mod I mentioned. I highly suggest one or the other.

[@%thesock10150alpha49]

Originally posted by Valden21:

Furthermore, Paarthurnax also tells us that he fights against those urges every single day, and has been doing so since the Dragon War. So far, he's been successful. Considering how long ago that was, I think it's safe to way that he's not gonna go an any rampages soon. It says a lot about his willpower that he HAS been able to resist that long.

Well, the knowledge that Alduin was going to return meant that he wouldn't have been able to seize power without Alduin taking it back, possibly through force. So maybe he was changed by Kynareth, but also maybe he was just scared/smart enough to know not to make his move yet.

I never trust their implications when it comes to the Aedra because one minute they're gods, the next their basically cardboard. Whereas we KNOW that Partysnacks still has ambition inside him, and after Alduin dies the world is practically handed to him on a platter.

[Ihateeverybody]

"An obstacle overcome, is always more valued than an obstacle avoided." - Someone much wiser than me.