Theory of what happened to the left-hand elves.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

For those that don't know, i'm going to bringing up some stuff that is only mentioned in the books and lightly touched on in the games, but to make sure no one is completely lost i'll explain what I'm talking about whenever it starts to go into area's that i don't think your average user will know.

(The left-hand elves aren't actually elves and the red-guard aren't actually human. both of them, and their entire island nation, was some how able to escape alduin's past kalpa. the only other thing to have done that was Mehrunes Dagon.)

Almost nothing is none of the Snestro elves, or the left-hand elves. the only ones who would know are the red-guard and they refuse to speak about. it's likely the younger red-guards have no idea what actually happened or anything about them so it turned into a not wanting to talk about into a general not knowing.

What is known about them is that they were were a dark skinned and red-haired super advance "elven" society from a different time-line all together (This will be important later.)

These "elves" were master masons and used magic that is completely unknown, the red-guard that did know it chosse to not use it in the new world, likely as a means to deal with what they done.

The red-guard wiped out all the left-handed elves using a forbidden magic that would be akin to a real world nuke. Only reason i can think of for them using it was likely a panic button, i suspect they were on the verge of being defeated and thought this death spell was their only chance. the few red-guard that survived left on boats heading towards the new world and not long after they landed, they began wiping out the elven communties they found due to a deeply inbedded hatred for elves.

The left-handed elves, not suspecting them to basically kill themselves, didn't prepare for it and because of this most were wiped out... but not all, at least not to me.

this was a race that was able to take an entire island and move it forward in time to avoid a being that only sithis could truly stop (That a different theory for a later date.) i doubt all of them would die so easily.

THIS IS WHERE THE TRUE THEORY COMES INTO PLAY:

I think that small group of the left-handed elves opened up a random portal to oblivion as a means of escaping, and over time that group would become the modern Dremora. (The charecteristics are similar) Eventually the princes began to "reshape" these survivors into the devil beings we know them as now. The princes can't create life, they can only shape what already exists.

Alternatively, they left-handed elves escaped to a near-by island and eventually became the malmar or the sea elves, the problem there is, at least on a cultural level, they don't have anything in common with the left-handed elves. The red-guard didn't change at all so i see no reason why the left-handed elves would radically change everything about them without some sort of higher being slowly forcing them.

The red-guard them selves only say one thing about Yukonda, that it sank beneath the ocean. however, in ESO (Which takes places several thousands of years later) you can actually see the island of yokunda off in the distance. So when the red-guard talk about it "sinking" i think that's more hyperbole.

Now, for those the follow this kind of stuff, the lore also states that all attempts to go to the ruined island have always failed. I have an idea about that as well and it has to do with a powerful yet frankly underrated species that are the altmers oldest rivals.

The sload.
For those that aren't aware of them, which is okay, bethesda rarely talk about them in the games, the sload are a very old sentient slug like amphibious race that's most unique trait is their natural master ability to control the dead. that's right, these guys were the first necromancers. the stuff these guys can do puts mannimarco to shame.

What do battle-fields all have in common?
Bodies, lots of dead bodies.
Seeing as how this is a island nation that dealt with at least once genocide and one near genocide, i suspect there would be literal mountains of dead-bodies. Obviously the sload would make a sort of pilgrimage to this place. a near infinte supply of corpses to do with as they please plus ancient and powerful magic that the rest of the world has no understanding of.

I suspect the sload turned this diaster island into a sort of mecca and destroy any vessel that comes near, which fits with the sloads interactions with the rest of nirn. most stories of them are always them attacking on sight, likely to do with their disregard for life seeing as how their entire culture is centered around bringing the life back, sometimes against it's will.

It also adds up because the region of modern day Yokunda is called "The malestrom of Bal" bal being the prince associated with necromancy. Personally, i think Namira fits that description better, but i'm not the one at bethesda who can't make up their mind on lore.


TL;DR
The left-handed elves, escaping the destruction of the paniced red-guard, escaped into a pocket realm of oblivion where the princes very slowly started to reshape them into the war-like creatures they are now know to be.

and the island it's self has become a sload hot-spot which sinks any shape (and likely reanimates the bodies) that comes too close.

None of this is proven, this is just what i think would logically happen. It's one of a dozen different outcomes, I just don't really talk about the others because they tend to lose traction the second you start to really think about it.

I'm not advertising for people to go play ESO, it's a bad game that no one wanted because it already exists (WOW) i just brought it up because it is considered canon and does show a distant Yokunda that, at least to me, looked burned and barren. devs wouldn't casually leave an entire island exactly where yokunda is suppose to be for no good reason. If so, if that is truly what happened, then these morons have no business working on a game that they have no understanding of.

It would be like making a LOTR game and swaping the roles of the elves and the orcs or placing mordor where the iron hills are with no reasons given other then "opps, We are only responsible for the creation of this game. It's not our fault we don't actually know anything about it's geography."

Just to stop amatuer pyschologists spamming the comments with them talking about how crazy they think i am for giving any real thought to a virtual game, i am well aware that this is not real. I am not implying that it is.

Unlike you, i can entertain fantasies without forgetting what they are. Maybe I'm just smarter than you or maybe you lot just want to be a douche, either way, not really my problem.

That might seem out of place, but I've actually had people try to tell me this once before when i talked about dwemer technology. I thought it was funny, but it didn't really add anything to the conversation. in fact, it had nothing to do with it at all.

[Kondaru]

As You mentioned already, one popular theory is that Yokuda (along with its Sinistral Elves and Redguards) had been related to some past kalpa, or at least something similar to a Dragon Break. Such events are difficult to analyze - there are suggestions that during past kalpas things had been happening in a similar way as during current kalpa but with spectacular twists; and that numerous parties (like Aedra and Daedra) acted in much different roles at that time, possibly switching places. So yes, using LOTR parallel, it would be possible to switch roles of orcs and elves, or even switching Valar roles with Melkor's, etc.

Pankratosword employed by Redguards, was known to "destroy the very laws of nature", which is another suggestion that it could have initiated a Dragon Break, kalpa turn-over, and/or that it could have started an event identical to Red Moment (Red Mountain battle) in which Dwemer race disappeared. There are more similarities between Dwemer and Sinistral Elves, such as their advanced technology, and great world influence: Dwemer had been known as most technologically advance race of Tamriel; while Sinistral Elves ruled over the whole Yokuda - which was supposed to be *much* bigger than Tamriel.

My theory is that the same thing happened to Lefthanded Elves as to Dwemer. Possibly it was simply a time-space split; in which new alternative planes of existence originated; so we now have: 1) separate reality with Sinistral Elves but no Redguards; 2) separate reality with Dwemer but no Chimer/Dunmer and possibly no Nords; 3) Tamriel as we know it.

Or perhaps both Sinitral Elves and Dwemer were simply spirited away to some Oblivion realm - in a way similar to what You suggest. Dremora theory is nice but remains just a guess, with no actual leads or proofs, or anything that could support the claim.

Sloads are a big unknow. They *can* originate from a different kalpa; but they can be just a part of "current" Nirn. It is quite convenient that their own kingdom - or Thras - seems to be relatively small chain of islands between Tamriel, Summerset Islands, and what remained of Yokuda (also see this map[vignette.wikia.nocookie.net]).

What we currently see as Youkuda Isles is just a small part of what Yokuda continent was rumored to be. Perhaps what remains are just some isles that had been neighboring the true continent; or perhaps those isles are tops of Yokudan mountains that are still emerging from the water after the continent sank. In this respect, Thrassian Reef *can* be a part of original Yokuda as well. Whatever the truth is, the current Thras is *not* the same place as current Yokuda. Those are different isles, and there are currently no references to Sloads persisting on Yokuda. Actually, there are some references that they coexisted with other *Tamriel* races in the past, and seemingly were allied to Maormer.

As for Maormer, they are believed to be descendants of Aldmer, just as Altmer, Bosmer, Dwemer, Chimer, Ayleids, Snow Elves, and *possibly* Orsimer. Which suggests that they are part of the current kalpa, probably distant relatives to some original Aedra. Also, they come from Pyandonea, which is on the opposite side of Summerset Isles to Yokuda nad Thras. Which makes it quite unlikely that they are related to Lefthand Elves and/or ancient Redguards.

Eventually, we *do not* know if current Redguards culture is identical to that of Yokuda; or if it is just a corrupted / evolved version.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

The whole orc being elves thing, it's nonsense really.
It's a classic example of what happens when you got too many people writing for a medium that don't have much information on.

The bosmer themselves, within the games own earlier lore, technically aren't elves at all. if they are, then that would mean that tamrieal was the birth place of elves and that bosmer are what all of the other ones come from. which... is actually supported in the modern games.

at the very least, there is no logical way that the altmer were the first elves AND the bosmer still being elven. I suspect it could be ego on the altmers end, they are the second strongest elven race (Dwemer being stronger, but in different ways. Deep elves weren't know for their use of magic, but they had constructs and armor that was better than anything the elves could think up. possible a stone they came in regular contact with slowly destroyed their ability to use magic, so as time went on they learned to rely on it less and less and started using their mind to solve their problems.)

In the earlier books and games, they (orcs) aren't considered elves. In-fact, a vaguely recall reading an ingame book in either oblivion or morrowind in which it tells tales of the ayelids pushing out a beast race that looked very much like modern orcs.

Plus you have the whole... "Trolls, Goblins, ogres and possibly giants" (I see no reason why skyrim's giants are the same ones from atmora. Atmora's were far larger, in fact Ysgramor and his men were likely the size of skyrim's giants now, plsu the giants themselves have some striking orcis traits. the ears and the horns mostly. it's possible that those giants might be what ysgramor and his men truly looked like when first arrived, but for some reason they didn't evolve like the rest of the group in modern nords, instead they devolved into what they are now, similar to the falmar.) being of the same blood-line as orcs, yet all of those things are just as old as the elves themselves, some of them being older than trinimac therefore there is no logical way the orcs could be elves. It's possible that after trinimac was tainted, the orcs started to view him as a god and being the most sentient out of the... I'm not sure what you would call that species family... let's just call them orsimer, he lead them out of the muck and grime they were living in. basically, he was their hisp trees.

I will admit, i really didn't have anything to connect the left-handed elves to the dremora, i was really just going by both of them having striking similarties and was using the whole "Nothing is known of either, so technically anything could be true" angle.

I have another theory on oblivion it's self, It don't personally think the princes were the first ones there. Atronchs and Xivalin (Likely spelt wrong.) don't follow any prince and in the case of the atronchs, they had (Until bethesda stummbled along and butchered it) their own advance socities. they could speak, they had kingdoms and rulers, they could contemplate. The Xiavlin, them i'm not so sure on. all i have to go by is in game they are stated as hating and lothing the dremora and the princes and often times being attacked and tortured by the dremora. This, coupled with the fact that they don't really look like them leads me to think that they might not even be deadric in origin.

in regards to the atronochs, i think they may of been the first living... anythings on nirn. basically, they would eventually become the fleshy creatures through a process similar to the green-pact that made the khajit, bosmer and possibly the orcs/hist trees.

The whole "Swapping the orcs and the elves" thing didn't really have anything to do with the rest of my essay, it was more me using an example to illustrate how i doubt the devs on ESO just randomly dropped a island exactly where yokunda is suppose to be.

I have no doubt that by the time the next elder scrolls comes out, literally all of this will likely be wrong because bethesda likes to change hard canon seemingly on a whim, but it was just a theory of mine. I have a few more.

I'm well aware that trying to carve out any logical events in elder-scrolls lore is largely pointless now. so much of it contradictory. hard truths are established then contradicted, sometimes in the same game. but i do think it's fair to judge it. if Bethesda didn't want to be judged for this, they would of never bother fleshing out the world with lore that didn't directly pertain to you, the player.

I'm well aware that on a technical level literally none of what i said, no matter how logical it may seem, is true. at the end of the day, i'm not the one writing the lore, just someone trying to make sense of it. I'm not going to pull a matpat and try to tell the creators themselves that i understand their creation more than they do. i don't have an ego that big. lol

[Kondaru]

No denying that Devs had heavily modified their original concept *several times*, and probably will do that again in the future. I believe that they had truly started to work on the Tamriel's history / on some metaplot somewhere around Daggerfall, and definitely put some serious effort into it by the time of Morrowind. They created the idea of Dragon Breaks and kalpas, to facilitate further deviations, and to make it possible to make shifts to previous lore - one of the smartest moves I have ever seen. At the current stage, I would say that Devs *try* to stick to their own major ideas, but are more flexible with details. So I would not expect big metaplot edits as far as basics are concerned...

...but nothing is certain, of course.

As far as I understand the original concept, we had a huge group of immortal spirits (Et'Ada) that lived in "space" or in Aetherius. They were truly mighty, and had inborn power to create pocket realms or planes almost at will. Such realms are what we currently know as Oblivion. One group of Et'Ada was ambitious, however, and decided to create a huge Oblivion realm that would be bigger and much more complex than any other Oblivion plane. They created Nirn. Et'Ada responsible for the act are called Aedra. Those who had not participated are Daedra.

The thing is that creation of Nirn was a huge endeavor, and it required an unspeakable amount of power. Numerous Aedra used up all or almost all of their essence in the process, and at the same time bound themselves to their project. The lesser Aedra - or those who spent the most of themselves - became the original elves of Nirn, i.e. Aldmer (with "d" letter in the name). Those most powerful turned into Nirn-bound gods instead.

The distinction between elves and other creatures of Nirn is here: elves are descendants / devolved version of the original Aedra, while other beings are their creation.

Now... There is, and never had been a clear explanation where Aldmer came from, and where their continent of Aldmeris was. It is quite possible that Aldmeris is just another world of Aetherius, and Aldmer is just a common name of all the Aedra that turned into elves. Another possibility is that continents of Nirn formed a common land in the past, a kind of Pangaea, and that original Aldmer ventured *all of it*.

Without their original powers, elves started to "degrade", and to group into separate "races". Some of them became Bosmer, some of them became Dwemer, some of them became Ayleids, etc. A group of them turned into Altmer (with "t" in the name). The main difference between Altmer and other elves is that they chose to empathize their aedric origin. That's about it, there is nothing more that makes them "better" or "more true" than other elven branches. Actually, Altmer are quite distant to what Aldmer probably were as can be seen by their focus on Eight Divines, and with how Psijic Order attempted to return them to their original ways.

Some elves share more similarities and some common history, as they split into separate races later than others. Some had separated from the common Aldmeri root by the very beginning, which explains why there is no clear connection between some of the elven races.

As far as Orismer are concerned... I don't know, perhaps they truly have elven origin. There are stories that a group of Aldmer was twisted/mutated into Orsimer by Boethian. To me this seems similar to how Chimer were cursed into Dunmer by Azura; or how Molag Bal twisted some mortals into vampires. Which would mean that Orsimer are not truly elves *anymore*... But as for their origin? Sure, why not.

As for resemblance of orcs and giants... Not much of an issue. I *guess* that creatures originally created by Aedra had been quite different to "current" sentient races. Your theories makes much sense here. Also, giants can be a result of cross-breeding between Orsimer and predecessors of Nords (which *could have* been giant themselves)... Or perhaps they are what left of the original "project" / trial version of Orsimer, eventually abandoned by Boethian.

As for current Daedric beings, such as Dremora, Xivilai, Atronachs, etc. - I perceive them as either descendants of the original spirits (Et'Ada) or as their puppets. Daedric beings can be devolved version of spirits that had been involved in creation of some of the prominent Oblivion planes in similar way that elves are devolved version of Aedra; but they can also be a creation of powerful Daedric Princes in a similar way that humans (and some other sentient beings of Nirn) are creation of Aedra.

I am far from stating that Dremora cannot be of Aldmer origin. This is still possible that group of Aedra turned into Aldmer, then a group of Aldmer formed Sinistral Elves, then a bunch of Sinistral Elves escaped into Oblivion, and then they were twisted into Dremore. The theory is really nice, though again: there is neither true argument nor actual proof to support the claim.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Todd had nothing of consequence to do with Daggerfall.
He worked on it, but he wasn't lead... anything. (Back then being a lead actually meant something. likely still does, but on the whole being a lead amounts to being a supervisors helper. with modern triple A titles lead is more... being butt-buddies with the higher ups and mastering the shortlived in-house politics.)

In fact, the lead for dagger-fall has come out in podcasts and almost talked down on what todd has turned the franchise into. He said that Todd was an okay guy, but a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ dungeon master. when they played D&D, Todd didn't actually like people doing their own thing and would get annoyed anytime someone found a way to break his illusion of choice.

The current lore origin for orcs states that orcs were born when the Altmer living god/general trinimac was consumed by boeithia. Trinimac was, by populat conception, destroyed. But, many orcish tribes think that he wasn't destroyed. Basically, When he was consumed, he was split into two different beings. Trinimac lived on with all of his strongest traits and from his darkest ones malacath was born.

How did the orcs and goblins and orgres and trolls (With-in the games lore, these groups are considered something akin to cousins) come into being? No idea. Could of been something like vampirism or it could be that Boethia cursed Trinimac and his army the same way Azura cursed the chimer. If that is truly the case, it doesn't explain why Malacath became a prince and was given his own oblivion realm. if anything that defeats the point behind a curse because you didn;t see Vivec, Alamexia, Sotha sil and Dagoth Ur given their own oblivion realm being made princes, although it likely would of benefited Dagoth Ur.

Part of me thinks that Trinimac took the curse of his own free will. It's possible Boethia was impressed by he and his men and offered them immense strength or Trinimac knew there was no winning and brokered a deal with Boethia, taking the curse to end the war.

Honestly, between you and me, i think the real reason bethesda changed the orcs origin between oblivion and skyrim might of been the same reason Cyrodil went from a lush tropical rainforest to a temperate forest, Lord of the rings.

Within Lord of the rings, Orcs (Which are really just mutants.) came into being when Melkor enslaved early proto-elves and over the millenniums changed them through torture and corruption into the orcs and goblins they would later become.

I think share-holders can also be blamed for how watered down the lore has become.