The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Special Edition

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Special Edition

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Thalmor and Ulfric the asset
Has anyone noted that perhaps the Thalmor are the ones actually behind the Stormcloak rebellion?
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Showing 1-15 of 72 comments
fauxpas Jul 5, 2019 @ 1:11pm 
Lots of people have, and they are all hugely mistaken because they don't have the required levels of reading comprehension.

The document in question doesn't say what you are implying it does.
Solomon Hawk Jul 5, 2019 @ 1:26pm 
I know the document doesn't say it "outright" in a way we would expect it to.
I picked up a subtle hint while reading it and it's a hint I think that's easy to miss.
Last edited by Solomon Hawk; Jul 5, 2019 @ 1:28pm
fauxpas Jul 5, 2019 @ 1:31pm 
Originally posted by Usher:
I know the document doesn't say it "outright" in a way we would expect it to.
I picked up a subtle hint while reading it.


No, you misread it, because what it actually outright says is that the Thalmor want the civil war to drag on forever as either side winning is a bad thing.


It also says that they believe Ulfric is controllable using doubleblind assets and feeding him selected intelligence and that they've given the rebels equipment in the past through channels which could not be traced back to them.


...


But nowhere does it state that Ulfric is a Thalmor sympathizer or that the Thalmor wants the Stormcloaks to win.
Solomon Hawk Jul 5, 2019 @ 1:39pm 
No no no.. I'm not saying Ulfric is a Thalmor sympathizer at all.

But what I'm getting at is they used, manipulated him in a way that started the rebellion with the murder of the High King of Skyrim who was an Empire representative.

The Thalmor purpose is to destabilize the Empire and (as you correctly pointed out) prolong the civil war.
Last edited by Solomon Hawk; Jul 5, 2019 @ 1:43pm
Originally posted by Usher:
No no no.. I'm not saying Ulfric is a Thalmor sympathizer at all.

But what I'm getting at is they used, manipulated him in a way that started the rebellion with the murder of the High King of Skyrim who was an Empire representative.

The Thalmor purpose is to destabilize the Empire and (as you correctly pointed out) prolong the civil war.
Yes they manipulated him, but he was still an ambitious traitor with no real morals.
Sparking a civil war is a standard strategy for any empire or large foe interested in conquest.
fauxpas Jul 5, 2019 @ 4:34pm 
Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:
Originally posted by Usher:
No no no.. I'm not saying Ulfric is a Thalmor sympathizer at all.

But what I'm getting at is they used, manipulated him in a way that started the rebellion with the murder of the High King of Skyrim who was an Empire representative.

The Thalmor purpose is to destabilize the Empire and (as you correctly pointed out) prolong the civil war.
Yes they manipulated him, but he was still an ambitious traitor with no real morals.


Ambitious, yes, but Ulfric has an excellent sense of morality and is fighting against a corrupt, rotten empire that has long since lost it's right to rule.
Solomon Hawk Jul 5, 2019 @ 7:20pm 
Originally posted by fauxpas:
Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:
Yes they manipulated him, but he was still an ambitious traitor with no real morals.


Ambitious, yes, but Ulfric has an excellent sense of morality and is fighting against a corrupt, rotten empire that has long since lost it's right to rule.

Well, the Empire lost its way when it lost the last Dragonborn Emperor. It's been under misrule since then.
But I think that's just the tip of the iceberg. There had to be a lot of other things that went wrong ... according to the prophecy.
Last edited by Solomon Hawk; Jul 5, 2019 @ 7:22pm
258789553873 Jul 5, 2019 @ 9:35pm 
Why would Ulfric side with the Thalmor? He wants Talos worship, and they want to eliminate it. Also, if you win on the stormcloak side, new shrines of Talos appear in select areas, including that temple in Solitude. And those Thalmor in Understone Keep disappear if you win on the stormcloak side too. Of course, that embassy doesn't go away, but that's probably because if it did, it would break the main quest line.

And 'excellent sense of morality'? The guy's obviously a racist, and he started the war by murdering another jarl for no clear reason other than 'to send a message'. What kind of message was he sending? That he would be willing to murder even the high king of Skyrim? He didn't even ask if Torygg would side with him or not, and Elisif claims that honestly, he probably would have too. Torygg apparently LIKED Ulfric, and Ulfric just goes up and murders him for no good reason other than to be provocative it seems. He also exploited Nordic traditions just to put Torygg into a position that he could not win. Torygg didn't have the option to refuse Ulfric's duel (at least without public backlash), and it was obvious that he could not win. He was just a young noble, while Ulfric was a freaking war veteran with the power of the voice. And their fight wasn't exactly much of a duel. Despite the claims in-game that he 'shouted him apart', in reality he just knocked him down with unrelenting force, then went over and stabbed before he could get up. That wasn't a fair fight, that was a cheap tactic. What, does the guy expect everyone to learn the Thuum? Considering he supposedly knows several, that wouldn't be too surprising.

Also, even the stormcloak Jarls don't trust him. Dengeir even claims he doesn't trust Ulfric any more than the empire, he just sided with him because he'd rather be ruled by 'the devil he knows'. Yeah, even the jarls on his side don't like him, they just like the empire less.There's also the case of Skald who clearly just doesn't like being told what to do. To get a house in the Pale, he tells you go over and murder a giant, for no reason other than the fact the empire told him to not do that. And it would seem he was trying to exterminate them JUST FOR FUN.

And why hate the empire? Because they lost a war? Ulfric is a freaking champion of the alt-right, who murders the High King for no apparent reason, all because he can't worship talos. He also wants to kick out everyone who isn't of Germanic descent. The empire is just trying to hold itself together so it can combat the Aldmeri dominion. Obviously, its chances of doing that keep dwindling. Valenwood and Elsweyr both succeed to join the Aldmeri dominion, Morrowind and Hammerfel left after the great war, and now Skyrim is trying to leave. What, is Ulfric so arrogant that he thinks he could win a war on his own against the Aldmeri dominion? He was a general in the great war, he already lost once, and he had the backing of the empire then. And he does realize that, being under Aldmeri control, Cyrodiil itself will likely be forced to go to war with Skyrim when the Aldmeri Dominion decides to take Skyrim? And I'm certain he's not going to look for help from Hammerfell, since its a black nation. He clearly doesn't care about Morrowind either. So yeah, its Skyrim vs Summerset, Valenwood, Elsweyr, and Cyrodiil. Yeah, that looks like a winnable fight. And keep in mind, the first three already defeated Cyrodiil, SKYRIM, Hammerfell, Highrock, and Morrowind. You really think Skyrim's gonna win?

And just so we know, its been a long time since I actually completed the civil war quest line (because as we all know, it sucks). And if I was to try again, I would side with the empire just because I don't want to side with the obviously racist Ulfric in an age where the alt-right is taking over the planet. In fact, when I first installed the heartbreaker mod, the first person I used it on was Ulfric, and I did that just because I was mad and needed to vent. And so I decided to install a mod that let me kill essentials, just so I could kill Ulfric, followed by Galmar, and then all his stupid neo-nazi soldiers. I even like to collect Stormcloak armor just so I can put it on a mannequin in my house, as a trophy.
fauxpas Jul 5, 2019 @ 9:54pm 
The myth about Ulfric being racist has been disproved many times over, so that cuts roughly 4/5 of your rant off at the knees right there.


As for the duel with the High King, it did serve a point, and like it or not, it was neccessary because the boy was both Imperial chosen and by Nordic tradition was unfit to rule if he couldn't stand against a challenge. Even if he had joined with Ulfric's rebellion, it wouldn't have garnered the popular support it did with Ulfric at the helm.


But yeah, continue crying your leftist tears, for they taste sweet in my morning coffee.
258789553873 Jul 5, 2019 @ 11:48pm 
You do know how the HIgh King is chosen, right? The Jarls vote for him. Which means that most of the Jarls put him in power, not the empire. And have you ever noticed that Solitude is clearly the most prosperous city in all of Skyrim? And Ulfric's city looks like a crumbling ruin. Even Falkreathe is in better shape than Windhelm. And when was this 'racism' thing disproven? Its so overwhelmingly obvious I would assume you would be idolizing him. Look at how he disregards the dark elf refugees, who are fleeing a VOLCANIC ERUPTION, which was followed by an invasion by blackmarsh (granted, that invasion wasn't unprovoked, but that doesn't mean all dark elves were a part of what Morrowind did to Blackmarsh). Yeah, the stormcloaks don't care about your race when you join, but serioiusly, do you really think a professoinal game company would make a game where you face racial discrimination? You'll also notice that no one EVER derides you for being an Altmer. The only guy that's really open about it is that obvious freak in Windhelm who suddenly becomes your best friend if you beat him up.

And personal strength doesn't make you a good leader. Ulfric's just exploiting the situation with the Aldmeri dominion to his advantage. Even the Jarls that support him fully admit that he's obviously just using the war as a ploy to become high king himself. And thinking about it, that's probably why he murdered Torygg: to open up the position of High King so he could take it, after he was voted in by all the Jarls who either already supported him, or were put into their positions by him. His whole war is just a coup disguised as some holy war. And as for the Jarls, think about it. He murdered the High King, and then ousted all the Jarls that didn't like him. You really think they would turn against him? Everyone would vote to make him High King, because the man would probably kill them if they didn't. Typical alt-right logic. Just murder anyone you can't beat in a debate. Tell me, if someone who denies that the civil war even happened murdered someone who tried to convince him that it did, does that make the conspiracy nut right? Obviously no. He's still a nutjob who only gets taken seriously because he's willing to go to any extreme to avoid having to face the truth he so desperately wants to deny.

And speaking of denialism, tell me this: if the holocaust never happened, then explain to me why the 1950 census clearly showed the global Jewish population dropping by 50% since the 1940 census? And looking at individual countries, the drop was almost entirely in countries occupied by the nazis! And also, the Jewish population didn't return to its 1940 population until the year 2000. Yeah. And btw, there's far more evidence that the holocaust happened than the civil war, yet you deny the first but not the latter? You're not denying something just for lack of evidence, you're just denying something you don't like (even though you people seem to support the idea of it happening).
Originally posted by fauxpas:
Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:
Yes they manipulated him, but he was still an ambitious traitor with no real morals.


Ambitious, yes, but Ulfric has an excellent sense of morality and is fighting against a corrupt, rotten empire that has long since lost it's right to rule.
I can't defend the Empire really, but Ulfric isn't an improvement. We could point out the flaws in both sides, both fail on the moral and ethical side, but most telling for me is that Ulfrics second in command is a BANDIT Chief... No matter how desperate you are, allying yourself with somebody who preys on your people is going too far.
Solomon Hawk Jul 6, 2019 @ 6:15am 
Originally posted by IXBlackWolfXI:
Why would Ulfric side with the Thalmor? <snip>

He doesn't and he never will side with the Thalmor. He's adamant about his hate of them.
He was captured by them during the last war, tortured and conditioned to "unknowingly" serve their purpose which is the eventual overthrow of the Imperial Empire.
This is what understanding that dossier means (at least to me).

Ulfric is so focused on his "Freedom from an Empire who allowed banning of Talos Worship" that he doesn't realize he has been serving the Thalmor scheme the whole time.


Side note: IXBlackWolfXI
I see that. 9-11 reference.
Last edited by Solomon Hawk; Jul 6, 2019 @ 6:33am
ZarahNeander Jul 6, 2019 @ 7:25am 
Originally posted by Usher:
Ulfric is so focused on his "Freedom from an Empire who allowed banning of Talos Worship" .....

Ulfric is focused on one thing: "Ulfric for high king". Saerlund (youngest son of Riften jarl) pretty much nails it:
Ulfric only cares about one thing... Ulfric. He's ordained himself the future High King of Skyrim and steps on anyone that gets in his way. He's begun a rebellion against those that wish to eradicate the worship of Talos and uses it as his rallying cry. His cause may be true, but the man is a lie... all he holds in his heart his lust for the throne
Solomon Hawk Jul 6, 2019 @ 7:34am 
Originally posted by ZarahNeander:
Originally posted by Usher:
Ulfric is so focused on his "Freedom from an Empire who allowed banning of Talos Worship" .....

Ulfric is focused on one thing: "Ulfric for high king". Saerlund (youngest son of Riften jarl) pretty much nails it:
Ulfric only cares about one thing... Ulfric. He's ordained himself the future High King of Skyrim and steps on anyone that gets in his way. He's begun a rebellion against those that wish to eradicate the worship of Talos and uses it as his rallying cry. His cause may be true, but the man is a lie... all he holds in his heart his lust for the throne

That would pretty much label him as a megalomaniac then.
Upstart knows a shout he was taught at High Hrothgar "Fus Ro Dah"
and yeah he's a "true Nord", a son of Skyrim ... the ancestral birthplace of the origin of the Empire (which he so hates). The very empire which was begun by a true Dragonborn. Ysmiir, the Dragon of the North. (Talos of Atmora the frozen kingdom of the far north).

He's a blind fool who is unfit to be high king of his own toilet due to the fact he benefits the Aldmeri Dominion in his ignorance.
Last edited by Solomon Hawk; Jul 6, 2019 @ 7:37am
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Date Posted: Jul 5, 2019 @ 1:00pm
Posts: 72