Why Bethesda changed the appearance of beast races in Skyrim and Oblivion?

[Жора]

So here is how Khajiits looked in Morrowind (just a random example, first pic that come in google will do, if you don't like to click on links):
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Suthay-raht
Same goes for Argonians. They were digitigrade.

Why Bethesda changed the appearance of beast races in Skyrim and Oblivion? Was that a simple laziness, was it caused by rushed prodution, or was that a sudden change in TES lore?

So I installed these two mods:
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/3417/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/1975/?
And surprisingly Khajiits and Argonians look much more interesting now, also work very well with animations.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=821626036

[stabbykitteh]

Originally posted by Sir Dylan the Wintery:

Likely a different subspecies of khajiit.
Not sure about argonians.

Morrowind Khajiit are Suthay-Rhat, Oblivion and Skyrim Khajiit are Cathay.

[Brandybuck]

The Khajiit lore is that there are more than thirty kinds of Khajiit, from some who look like ordinary housecats to some who are indistinguishable from Bosmer. Seriously. Every game so far has had a different kind of Khajiit, but they are all lore friendly.

Argonians are a different matter, the lore is much murkier, but there are certainly tribes of Argonians that are are quite distinct from each other in appearance. It's not clear, but within the realm of legitimate interpretation that the Hist created the Argonians to be man/elf-like lizards. Hence the breasts, which are in lore (along with eggs). They are NOT manlike velociraptors no matter how cool that might be.

[MysticMalevolence]

Originally posted by stabbykitteh:

Originally posted by Sir Dylan the Wintery:

Likely a different subspecies of khajiit.
Not sure about argonians.

Morrowind Khajiit are Suthay-Rhat, Oblivion and Skyrim Khajiit are Cathay.

There you go.

[wat]

I'm pretty sure it had nothing to with art or lore, but with saving dev time on animations and armor/clothing meshes.
All the playable races use the same skeleton, and thus can use the same animations and outfits, headgear being the exception.

[Жора]

Originally posted by stabbykitteh:

Morrowind Khajiit are Suthay-Rhat, Oblivion and Skyrim Khajiit are Cathay.

So, in the whole two provinces of Tamriel there are no Suthay-Rhat and other cats/argonians spicies we seen in Morrowind? That's too convenient, isn't it? Especially given the fact that Morrowind shares its border with both Skyrim and Cyrodiil. Now tell me what subspecies Mai'q belongs to?

[stabbykitteh]

Originally posted by Жора:

So, in the whole two provinces of Tamriel there are no Suthay-Rhat and other cats/argonians spicies we seen in Morrowind? That's too convenient, isn't it? Especially given the fact that Morrowind shares its border with both Skyrim and Cyrodiil. Now tell me what subspecies Mai'q belongs to?

M'aiq would be Cathay. It's just the most human looking version. It's probably all we'll ever see, though the housecats in ESO are rumored to be Alfiq :P

Keep in mind I also said this:

Originally posted by stabbykitteh:

Personally I think it had more to do with saving disc space and rendering on consoles. Oblivion was pretty graphics intense for it's time, and using one body for every type of male and one for every type of female is more efficient.

and agree with this variation:

Originally posted by Fathat:

I'm pretty sure it had nothing to with art or lore, but with saving dev time on animations and armor/clothing meshes.
All the playable races use the same skeleton, and thus can use the same animations and outfits, headgear being the exception.

[Icedfate]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the design changes. except, I wonder if a "real" cat-humanoid hybrid would have the same foot type as a human and be able to wear the same shoes.

I mean, i guess even in morrowind, I'm not sure if the khajiit could wear boots (I dunno, I never played as one) most of the khajiit I saw in morrowind were barefoot wheich is probably why I noticed the whole digitgrade posture in the first place.

lorewise, wouldn't an animal hybrid prefer to be barefoot? cats have claws and tough pads on their feet, I would imagine that boots would be uncomfortable. (and I'd think this is the reason why the khajiits are primarily rogue types)

although, the lore does describe Elsweyr as a burning desert, so maybe they did develop footwear to protect their feet, even cats and dogs in real life have to be cautious walking on hot ground.

when I see the khajiits in skyrim walking around in leather boots, it does seem a little "off", not immersion breaking .

the argonians come from a swampy wetland, they are at home in muddy waters and I wonder if they would be wearing boots in that muck, unless maybe they did develop it to protect them from parasites or biting things in the bottom of the swamps? (like leeches and waterbugs and stuff, there's a reallife waterbug called the toe-biter and you do NOT want to get bit by one of those )

I suspect that the khajiits and argonians were really just a not fully thought out attempt at creating more variety of races in the old school games like daggerfall and they never expected the series to go this far and now they got grandfathered in and bethesda has to include them in all the games.

on a side note, I've seen npc Dremora that you can talk to in morrowind, oblivion and skyrim, wouldn't be cool if Daedra was a playable race in the next game?
I also am curious as to what Elsweyr and the black marsh would look like in a full scale TES game.

I do suspect it's more likely that the next game will take place in the bretons or redguard homeland though.

[Washell]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Yes, that Khajiit looks wrong, he has too many joints in his leg.

Same as you, hip/knee/ankle/toes.

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

If young Khajiit had legs like that they would break their necks while learning to walk

Real cats manage just fine...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR6IpfAsHQ8

@OP: Morrowind's design meant they couldn't wear boots and (iirc) helmets, limiting their ability for allround enchanted gear. It also requires custom animations. Giving them a default humanoid body achieves parity with the other races, it's cheaper and takes less manhours. It's also a damn shame.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Washell:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Yes, that Khajiit looks wrong, he has too many joints in his leg.

Same as you, hip/knee/ankle/toes.

Ok lets just assume that's right, I personally think that he has an extra joint between the ankle and the toes, but lets say you are right. That effectively means he is walking on the balls of his feet, ouch.

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

If young Khajiit had legs like that they would break their necks while learning to walk

Real cats manage just fine...

Real cats learn to walk on all fours, not on two legs, those legs are much more flexible than human legs, but that means they are harder to learn to walk on. Seriously watch a human toddler learn to walk, it is hard work, now add an extra joint (or have them on tip toes constantly from day one), that's just too much balancing for safety. This is why we humans have the leg set up we have, instead of more complex set ups that monkeys have, it's just easier to learn to use, and I think unless you can come up with a reason for Humaniod races to have different legs, the same applies to them.

@OP: Morrowind's design meant they couldn't wear boots and (iirc) helmets, limiting their ability for allround enchanted gear. It also requires custom animations. Giving them a default humanoid body achieves parity with the other races, it's cheaper and takes less manhours. It's also a damn shame.

I'll agree it probably was for easier animations, and standardising of gear, which is why the games only have one type of Khajiit in them, I would like to see more. But the feet make more sense for Bipeds, even Bipeds with tails for balancing.

[Жора]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Real cats learn to walk on all fours, not on two legs,

Most human babies learn to crawl first. At the age of 10 months they procced to learning how to stand straight and walk. Cats grow much faster than humans. Some may become reproductively capable at a mere 4 months. If we assume that cat normally walk on 2 legs, their babies would be walking from the age of a few weeks.

[Washell]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by Washell:

Same as you, hip/knee/ankle/toes.

Ok lets just assume that's right

Let's not assume. It is. It's a very, very common way of walking, and certainly not exclusive to creatures that walk on fours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitigrade

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Жора:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Real cats learn to walk on all fours, not on two legs,

Most human babies learn to crawl first. At the age of 10 months they procced to learning how to stand straight and walk. Cats grow much faster than humans. Some may become reproductively capable at a mere 4 months. If we assume that cat normally walk on 2 legs, their babies would be walking from the age of a few weeks.

Well, interesting point.

Khajiit might be able to learn to crawl quicker, actually this is supported by the lore, they would not learn to walk on two legs significantly quicker. In fact if they have the Morrowind style legs they would prefer to walk on all fours for longer than human babies (with that leg set up it would be extremely comfortable and efficient).

But if they have human style legs, they would take about the same length of time to learn to walk on two legs, possibly a smidge quicker, but not by much. This is because it takes this long for the Brain to form the correct Neural pathways for it. Then about the same length of time to master running, and tumbling about safely, although with claws Khajiit would have an advantage learning to climb.

Elder Scrolls Online even has a Rite of Passage set of quests which strongly suggests that Khajiit grow up in a similar way to Humans, with similar childhoods. There may be some minor differences between Khajiit Children and Human Children, but these appear to be minor. The major differences appear to be mental, although as the series has progressed the Khajiit have become more sane and Humanlike. (although the game has a book that still says Khajiit don't think logically, can't think logically in fact)

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Washell:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Ok lets just assume that's right

Let's not assume. It is. It's a very, very common way of walking, and certainly not exclusive to creatures that walk on fours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitigrade

Yes I know it is a common set up, I thought the Khajiit in the picture has slightly larger feet than that though (something between Cat paw and human foot), which is why I said I thought there was an extra joint.

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by Жора:

So here is how Khajiits looked in Morrowind (just a random example, first pic that come in google will do, if you don't like to click on links):
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Suthay-raht
Same goes for Argonians. They were digitigrade.

Why Bethesda changed the appearance of beast races in Skyrim and Oblivion? Was that a simple laziness, was it caused by rushed prodution, or was that a sudden change in TES lore?

So I installed these two mods:
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/3417/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/1975/?
And surprisingly Khajiits and Argonians look much more interesting now, also work very well with animations.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=821626036

That's an easy answer - so the could use the same skeleton and same clothing meshes for all the PC and NPC's.

[Brandybuck]

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

I suspect that the khajiits and argonians were really just a not fully thought out attempt at creating more variety of races in the old school games like daggerfall and they never expected the series to go this far and now they got grandfathered in and bethesda has to include them in all the games

This is indeed the case. It's obvious to most, but angry arguing over lore hides it.

The game is what it is due to needs of the game. Lore is just the whitewash to cover up the fact that this universe started out as a D&D campaign. One with a rather fleshed out cosmology, but still a D&D campaign. It has the classic high, wood, dark elf trilogy, underground dwarves, and even the classic D&D lizardmen. It is a rather nice whitewash, but still whitewash and one must not forget that we're arguing over whitewash.