You CANNOT Remove Mods Mid-Playthrough

[smr1957]

(Initially posted in original Skyrim forum)
Am posting this because the problem of individuals removing mods mid-playthrough and subsequently having problems seems to be cropping up quite a bit recently.

(PURE MESH/TEXTURE REPLACEMENT MODS ARE SAFE TO REMOVE. SO ARE MODS USING VANILLA ASSETS AND SPAWNS.)

From Arthmoor:
"3. There is no such thing as a clean save. It does not matter who tells you there is, it doesn't exist in Skyrim. You cannot remove any mod, not even the patch, without there being some data that's been permanently changed. Doing this repeatedly WILL damage your save and WILL eventually lead to it becoming corrupt and unusable. Bethesda's own developers have confirmed the only way to properly remove a mod is to load a save made BEFORE that mod was introduced into the game. If you started a new game with 10 mods installed, you're going to be stuck with those 10 forever."


Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch by Unofficial Patch Project Team - https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71214/?
Posts section, second stickied post, point of information #3
posted @ 2:08, 8 Feb 2016 , stickied at 2:08, 8 Feb 2016

and Ilja:

"You can't remove mods from ongoing game. Skyrim bakes script data to save file. There is no such thing as a clean save, when mod is removed. "Clean save" is for mod updates only. This includes work done with Save Script Cleaner. That tool cleans obsolete entries and orphaned scripts from the game, but script data will remain in the save file, causing Papryus to constantly check it and creating errors.

If you removed scripted mods from ongoing game, then you will have to start a new game." - Ilja

https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/343788552537617802/#c343788552538346202

Also:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/365163686057140233/?tscn=1504123538#c365163686058904424

And, again from Ilja:

"I believe that misunderstanding here is that people can not make a difference between closing active scripts from the game world and wiping Papyrus script data from Papyrus. Latter is impossible to make in a clean way."
https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/1495615865205745360/?tscn=1529568370#c1696043263497229374

"You can't uninstall most mods from ongoing game. Skyrim bakes script data to save files and unisntalling the mod does not remove it. It only causes errors in Papyrus scripting system.

Even if mod does not use any scripts, it's changes would need to be subjects of Skyrim vanilla respawn/refresh system." - Ilja

https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/1368380934258855911/#c1368380934263549103

furthermore:
"It is important to note that Skyrim does not have method to remove mods from the game. It bakes script data to save files and can not retroactively update scripts from the game.

This means that Papyrus will keep checking after scripts that were removed from the game, causing errors, slowing down and eventually breaking.

You should test all changes with a new game. Once you are done, then you will need to start a new game.

You can always safely remove mods that use:
- Vanilla spawn points and assets, without direct world edits.
- Pure mesh and texture replacement mods.
- World edits subject to vanilla area respawn system.

Otherwise removing any mods will leave the data baked in to save files. That will cause issues in the game, starting from oddities and potentially ending in completely wrecked Papyrus for the character you were playing." - Ilja
https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/1470841715944914155/?tscn=1502534549#c1470841715968830878

from Nazenn:
"Cleaning out a mods referances does not make that mod safe for uninstallation. Cleaning your save file regularly won't stop save bloat or other script based errors. :)"
https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/523890681422555089/?ctp=5#c481115363852020188

There is also this, by Altbert:

"If you want any proof about the tons of "if's" just take a closer look at the Save File Format described here:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim_Mod:Save_File_Format#Plugin_Info
All possible info on plugins (ESP and ESL) files is stored in the save file by name, and everyting in it by ID, including scripts, base and referenced NPCs, and every other possible object, already present in the base game, and added or changed by a plugin, even if it only changes one game setting or if it is only used as a dummy to load a BSA file with only meshes and textures.

Every object in the game has a Reference ID, stored in the save file. This ID not only points to an ingame object, but also points to the plugin that has changed or added that object. This will also include MCM scripts. Not sure about .NET DLLs (yet, but hope to find out).

As mentioned before: DO NOT UNINSTALL PLUGINS MID PLAYTHROUGH!"
https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/3037102935221914007/#c3037102935223556762


WHAT GETS BAKED INTO A SAVE

Again, from Arthmoor: [Skyrim] Information Baked Into Saves - https://www.afkmods.com/index.php?/topic/3676-skyrim-information-baked-into-saves/
(reading the above linked full discussion is highly recommended)

"So I figured it's about time to begin keeping track of what does and doesn't bake itself into your saved game. Enough things do so that it's getting hard to keep track of in my head, and what good does it to anyone else up there... where my fingers are too short to get it out....

So far, we have:

- Papyrus script properties. These become permanently baked in from the moment the game starts and/or when a new mod with scripts is added. Script properties can only be updated by forcing them to change via an update script, like what the USKP uses for retroactive fixes.
- Objects pointed to by Papyrus properties. These can never be moved, even with scripted commands. This data is baked in from the moment the game starts and/or a new mod is added. Most attempts will simply fail silently, while others will log an error saying the objects can't be moved.
- Objects pointed to in forced reference aliases for quests. These are not supposed to become permanently persistent, but more often than not that's exactly what happens.
- Changes to any vanilla objects made via scripts. Including global variables and any other information. These changes are written as modification records in the save and can only be reversed with another script.
- Map Marker data. Specifically, if you alter a map marker, remove the name from it, then proceed to play, the map marker will permanently lose this information even after the mod is removed.
- Positions of havok enabled items in cells you've visited. Even if you move them in the CK and you haven't disturbed them yourself. This may reset itself upon the cell's next cycle, but so far all indications are that it won't.
- Positions of moveable static objects become permanent after your first encounter with them. Prior to this they will update.
- Changing ownership on a bed from nobody to a faction does not appear to update, while changing it from nobody to a specific NPC appears to work fine.
- Several fields on NPCs are known to bake in: Crime Faction, Faction memberships, Inventory items, Morality (AI Data tab), the opposite gender animations flag. These fields appear to only bake in if the NPC actually loads into memory at least once during play.
- Facegen Data for NPCs. This seems somewhat hit or miss, but more often than not, if you have encountered an NPC while playing, any changes to their facegen data that may be made later will be ignored.
- Timescale changes. You can make a one-time change to the game's timescale through an ESP, but after that, any changes to timescale must be done either via Papyrus or the console as the change is permanent in the save once made."

"All Papyrus scripts get embedded into the save from the moment you install a new mod. No exceptions."

"I don't know where you're getting the message that we can clean saves. We can't. Those stop scripts cannot resolve the issue. They only serve to shut down the running update loops those mods have. They cannot reverse the actual changes made."

[re: Cleaners] "anything ... claiming to edit ANYTHING in the save game - the format hasn't been decoded enough for any of these utilities to actually work as advertised. They should have been removed from Nexus considering they're dangerous and will only corrupt your save further.
The only solution to the baked data problem is to abandon the save and start a new game."

[Re removing and then reinstalling] "The save still remembers the old form ID and never gets rid of it. You can come back months later, change your form ID back to the old one, and it will simply resume using the old data in whatever state it was last in. As far as the game is concerned you've got a pair of quests using different instantiations of the same scripts.
This is not something that happens when changing a form ID on some other object like a rock or a tree or whatever. Then again, changing a form ID on something like a quest was never designed to be possible."


And in layman's terms:
"think of modding a game as painting a picture, you can add as many mods as you want as you go along, when you decide to remove one exspecialy one that has been running for a while you have layers upon layers of script that became dependant on said mod and will cause issues with your current playthrough, from as simple as a missing set of stairs to the game crashing, it's best if you just scrap the current save and start over if your going to remove mods." - AriekB
https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/1483232961043102614/?tscn=1508126851#c1483232961044934449

Your options are:
1) continue with the mod in place (NOT an option if the mod is actively breaking or bugging the game)
2) load a save made before the removed mod was installed
3) start a new game


You may also need to refer to the following:
How to verify integrity of game cache by Ilja -
https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/1843493219431033688/

And:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2743619856

For those who prefer a vid, see this by GamerPoets - Clean Installation Tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ5uNCKOKmI


And, as always, make sure you thoroughly read the pinned topic and do as it says:
Skyrim SE: Guides and Resources by Ilja
https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/340412122413706606/
VERY IMPORTANT if you wish to successfully mod your game


And if new to modding the game, read the following to see just what modding Skyrim entails:
Excellent advice regarding modding Skyrim (essay written by PeggleFrank for original Skyrim, but in general applies to SSE, as well) https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/343787920127409994/#c343787920127583150

And if you don't want to go through all the bother of researching mods yourself, and then trying to get them to work in your game, I strongly recommend the following excellent guides (constantly updated and maintained by Vlad 254, one of the forum's most respected members and currently the best guide author around).
For the most basic and minimal mod build, see this guide first:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2738338974
For a more complex beginning build, there is this:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636368499
and it's associated thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/4676423350587480430/


DETERMINING WHAT MODS ARE PRESENT/MISSING FROM A SAVE

Sometimes, you may have a save but don't know what mods were installed when that save was made.

Use Wrye Bash https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/6837/? to find out which mods may be missing from your load order. If you want to discover what mods you had active in a given save, all you do is click on the tab that says Saves. In the left hand pane, you will see a list of your save files; clicking on any of those save files will show - in the the right hand center pane - a list of all your mods that were active for that save.

Blue checkbox indicates that all mods are present and in exactly the same order as they were for that save.

Green checkbox indicates that all mods are present, but not in precisely the same position (mods have been added and are in between the mods present in the save (not an issue, and can be considered as good as blue)

Orange checkbox indicates that some mods are in a different position then they were in the save (due to resorting the load order) - not necessarily a problem as the game will handle this automatically, but due to the load order being modified, you may see some changes in game (as a mod overwrites another that it originally did not).

Red checkbox indicates that the highlighted mod is not present in your load order. This needs to be corrected by reinstalling that mod, as you cannot remove mods mid playthrough. If you cannot or do not wish to use that mod anymore, you must go back to a save from before it was installed, or start a new game.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originalmente postado por Black Album:

See what ?? .... lol

A thread telling them that if they remove mods mid playthrough they will ♥♥♥♥ happening in their game...... why, what did you think I meant???

[Blonde Travolta]

Lets put this to the test. I will remove Frostfall and Campfire. Then load the game. It will say I dont have these 2 mods. Okay. After it loads I will make a new manual save. Then exit the game. Then reload the manual save.

[smr1957]

Need to push this to the top because there are still people advising the use of save cleaners to fix saves from which mods have been removed - that is NOT their purpose and it does NOT fix saves!

[Perplex]

I have removed mods with no problems what so ever mid game.

[Ilja]

Originalmente postado por Perplex:

I have removed mods with no problems what so ever mid game.

This is an intentional design by Bethesda Game Studios. Script data is baked to save files. You can use "clean save" methods to stop scripts and even clean active entries from the world. However, the script data still remains baked to save files.

Any event that calls it will mess up Papyrus. You can remove a scripted mod after 5 hours of play and notice a massive amount of problems instantly. Or, you can remove that mod after 5 hours of play and notice the effect after 60 more hours of gameplay, because it took that long for something to check the script data and notice the missing sources.

Usually these issues appear rather sooner than later.

If you haven't seen any problems, then you likely didn't remove mods with custom script sources.

[258789553873]

Some mods have ways for you to disable w/e it does in-game, allowing you to remove them mid-game supposedly without issue. I've seen quite a few mods that have instructions on the main page on how to do this. I've never attempted any of these myself though.

[Ilja]

That is the so called "clean uninstall" method I described; halting active scripts and (if needed) attempting to clear active entries from the game world.

Some mod authors still give that advice. More experienced authors note that the method gives the "best chance", instead of saying it actually wipes the save file clean from scrip residue.

Problem is, that many mod authors release their mods thinking that entries do not remain, because active entries can be wiped from the game world. This has been proved to false impression over and over again, but practice remains.

And we can actually all see why. Most mod authors are not educated or connected. Many of them just have fun idea and then they have fun by making it real. That is what it is about.

But then many of them just go with the flow of "I have removed several mods mid-game and never had problem, so why would anyone have issues with MY mod?"

Aaaaaaaand suddenly someone pops in, noting that line from custom script, related to removed mods from that author, is now busting their game. Can you guess the tone these players use?

"Your "=("&) mod broke my ")&"= game and your ")&" instructions are ")&("% and you should only date underpant gnomes in the future!" (=> Nexus Warning or Ban.)

And that, ladies and gentleman, is why threads like these exist.

You guys really are free to do what ever you want with your games. You can take risks, by removing scripted mods and creating what ever horrors the ever-so-intimidating-and-gloriously-fearsome-mess-called-Papyrus has to deal with. Your games, your calls.

But in that case:

• Mod users shouldn't go screaming at mod authors, or Bethesda, if and when their favorite characters are blown to heaven of bits by messed up Papyrus.
  
  
• Mod authors shouldn't go in to fairy-princess-in-distress -modes, when people confront them of instructions that they can not guarantee to function.

[★Kelvy★]

Maybe just using a bit of common sense and thought wouldn't hurt either. If you read some advice, you can always get a clearer picture by asking if you are unsure what to do.

[Black Album]

Very well said, Ilja ...

Steve.... I might be a good idea to copy and paste Iljas' post and replace your post #2 with it.
It'll make a good read there instead of being buried at post #97 ...

[smr1957]

Punching this back to the top for visibility as I just today ran into several posts where people were having issues because of the exact reason

[Swordgun]

Not all mods add or edit scripts. Vast majority of mods only alter some values in records, like item weights, names, prices, rewards, light intensity, leveled lists, etc. Retexture and remeshe mods. Mods that add new music entries/replace vanilla music. These are just some examples. And they are completely safe to install/uninstall any time during a playthough.

[smr1957]

Originalmente postado por Raskolnikov:

Not all mods add or edit scripts. Vast majority of mods only alter some values in records, like item weights, names, prices, rewards, light intensity, leveled lists, etc. Retexture and remeshe mods. Mods that add new music entries/replace vanilla music. These are just some examples. And they are completely safe to install/uninstall any time during a playthough.

Did you even read the discussion post?

People, make sure you read the discussion post in its entirety.

Also, this is a reference post and is not meant for general discussion.

[Iceira]

SMR is skse.ini still valid to do, as i recall from oldrim some was default and not needed.
i have edit added and dont get much improvement, maybe a tiny bit, i mean its so little that you actual get in doubt it help at all.

ps.
but i have notice a huge improvement , you need free space on disk, whatever skyrim do it unpack or access somethings ( i could say maybe game work faster on SSD because what it do )

and with inventory at 50000 , or after i start to play dawnguard registration of that data and area i can feel the access of chest ( got heavyer )
and it dont help i cruncing data cancer project same time ( i even pause it same issue )

so its clear to me Original game work fine then you open up for DLC'S area game start to get heavy. i try to buff the game but nothing seem to work. ( other then new disk in system seem to solve the lack of free space. )

im not saying you can help, but see it as feed back, ( then people as me use 100% cpu leftover idle and missuse inventory content past normal carryweight value. )

[smr1957]

Are you speaking of the SKSE memory fix, Iceira? That is not needed for SSE, due to the 64 bit engine and the elimination of the 32 bit engine limitations on memory. There is, however, an option for SSE Engine Fixes - https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/17230 :
"Experimental

CellInit (default: true) - Fixes a rare crash where a form does not get converted from an id to a pointer.
MemoryManager (default: false) - Disables built-in memory manager for the game's largest heaps. This is the famous "Use OS Allocators" patch
from LE.
UseTBBMalloc (default: true) - If you enable the memory manager patch, this will also replace standard malloc with tbbmalloc. This does nothing if the memory manager patch is disabled.
SaveGameMaxSize (default: false) - Expands maximum save game size from 64 MB (uncompressed) to 128 MB. If you have a long playthrough and your game starts crashing when you try to save, this might fix it. Marked experimental because I can't test it myself, but is most likely safe."

Just as a personal note, which may not apply to all - In my build of 1535 mods, using a GTX 1080, I encounters no issues with the game being able to load or run - though it is important to note that I only used 2K textures (except in one or two cases where it was not available), in order to minimize the impact on performance and load on the game and on my PC.

[Iceira]

Originalmente postado por smr1957:

Are you speaking of the SKSE memory fix, Iceira? That is not needed for SSE, due to the 64 bit engine and the elimination of the 32 bit engine limitations on memory. There is, however, an option for SSE Engine Fixes - https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/17230 :
"Experimental

CellInit (default: true) - Fixes a rare crash where a form does not get converted from an id to a pointer.
MemoryManager (default: false) - Disables built-in memory manager for the game's largest heaps. This is the famous "Use OS Allocators" patch
from LE.
UseTBBMalloc (default: true) - If you enable the memory manager patch, this will also replace standard malloc with tbbmalloc. This does nothing if the memory manager patch is disabled.
SaveGameMaxSize (default: false) - Expands maximum save game size from 64 MB (uncompressed) to 128 MB. If you have a long playthrough and your game starts crashing when you try to save, this might fix it. Marked experimental because I can't test it myself, but is most likely safe."

Just as a personal note, which may not apply to all - In my build of 1535 mods, using a GTX 1080, I encounters no issues with the game being able to load or run - though it is important to note that I only used 2K textures (except in one or two cases where it was not available), in order to minimize the impact on performance and load on the game and on my PC.

forgot to mention, just playedthrough without mods, and all work as it should , it could actual be a skyUI issue because all menu is change and original menu dont have the lag to chest or inventory open issue. ( but that is hard to figureout then you need other input with semi same experience and missuse inventory size and it require to many test play through.

no it was not them , but good to know
( i dont use MO ) but did see elijas note about memfix )

[General]
EnableDiagnostics=1
ClearInvalidRegistrations=1
[Display]
iTintTextureResolution=2048
[Memory]
defaultHeapInitialAllocMB=1024
scrapHeapSizeMB=256

this was document

as i try to explan, it feel like after open the area with more data entrys from DLC's it just got worse ( and now i have join dawnguard side with mods even reduce my inventory to 25000 and still clean up and reduce to get ride of the item to storre houses.

the other games original game with no mods did not have the lag issue. im not blaming the mods, its darn hard to prove and yes loot app is checked, problem is cant turn off skyUI then other mods need MCM

and yes i will reduce inventory even further, but it dont seem to help much, if this is simple a SKYUI issue. maybe to many item is the issue. ( thats why i reduce it as test )