Rant on firewood and other economical considerations

[J's]

Ok, it just struck me because I started a game on Legendary and it's grindiliscious... but the way firewood sales is handled is pretty game breaking.

Take for exemple the inkeeper in Whiterun, she'll buy any quantities at 5 gold a piece (for several hundreds or even thousands if you are patient enough)... yet she'll only buy wine/food for up to 100ish gold ?!?

Where does all that "other" money comes from? Shouldn't it be capped at the store money and concurent with it? For that matter if merchants as these had "provision" funds, should there be a higher limit to there money? Should that limit be dependent on the kinds of stock they buy?

(eg stock they sell vary depending on what stock they have, some games have handled it with variable prices ... cough cough Fable... but it would be better just to stop buying when you're full... and have a high allotement when you're near empty)

(eg2 stocks that are not usualy sold in the course of buisness should vary according to the merchant general wealth and be seen as merely an opportunity to turn a profit on high end commodities... like a blacksmith buying some gems a sucker is ready to sell at a loss because he/she is too lazy to go to a jeweler... richer merchants wether through their general type of craft or localization/economy would get more funds for that extra loot)

I know, it's not too Skyrim-y, yet it's definitely more RPG. All in all, it would not remove the fact that no one on earth as unlimited money... or else the whole concept of price to begin with is irrelevant.

[JDaremo Fireheart]

I hear ya, it can be. Wait for SKSE64 to come out and be stable and I'm sure there will be a couple good economy mods out. I would love to see one with a bit more realism myself.

[J's]

Originally posted by Toast:

If it helps you to rationalize it, people always need firewood in rural areas where it's cold. Always. And that's just today when we have electricity and propane. Imagine how much higher the need would be if we didn't. That's the situation you're dealing with in Skyrim. They probably have a set budget for most items, but not when it comes to firewood, because they absolutely know they can always turn right around and make a profit. It's a guarantee.

You could even push it farther by imagining there's someone already waiting with gold in hand to pick up firewood from the person you're selling it to. Then they'll transport it out to someone who'll pay an even bigger markup for the delivery service.

Waiting with gold in hands, yes.... but not enough gold to buy a few weeks worth of food and enough gold to buy insane amount of wood I just chopped outside her house? At best she'd pay me a daily wage IRL.

[J's]

@ Toast : I agree that different area/kingdom of a very large world should have various currencies, wiith exchange rates depending on various factors (frequency of contact, ennenimity, physical properties of the currency, etc). There is also the possibility of ancient currency for any world spawning more then an era with some degree of civilization (like TES).

I don't agree it's a time limitation, it's rather a "why bother with it" because it's not part of the main game. To me it feels like the ability to sell wood was an after thought not fully integrated in the game and rushed, like the ability to sell crops to farmers (not only do they not report you for stealing their crops, they pay you way over what manual labor is worth by buying back their property).

As for the OCD part, I won't comment further on your opinion of my mental health... except to say it's in bad taste.

[Goffender]

I thought OCD was a complement! Lol, the firewood, inho is there to give you a way out when your master plan goes way bad and you find yourself totally broke. Or something to do while watching shows with your spouse. Am I correct in saying it's not anywhere near the fastest way to make gold? Point mainly being it's a different system.

Prices should totally vary! I also wish relations with individual vendors could be a factor. Like if you sell them alot they give you better deals because they know your taking care of them.

[alexander_dougherty]

The game uses one type of currency, ignores silver and copper (or brass for that matter), and you are surprised the economics don't work.

In real life most purchases would have been in copper (or brass if they used Brass coinage as well), with silver for for things like pots pans, and cutlery. Gold would have been for expertly made weapons, expertly made armour and property, very little else. Once you start charging gold for bread the entire system becomes unrealistic.

[Delta 1038]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

The game uses one type of currency, ignores silver and copper (or brass for that matter), and you are surprised the economics don't work.

In real life most purchases would have been in copper (or brass if they used Brass coinage as well), with silver for for things like pots pans, and cutlery. Gold would have been for expertly made weapons, expertly made armour and property, very little else. Once you start charging gold for bread the entire system becomes unrealistic.

Somewhat off-topic to OP's thread but I would argue that Tamriel's economy isn't unrealistic, just different to what we're used to.

Historically, gold was valuable for two reasons: it was uncommon and it was shiny and in Tamriel, magic has eliminated the first factor making gold a pretty useless metal for the common Tamrielian?.

EDIT:

Originally posted by J's:

@ Toast : I agree that different area/kingdom of a very large world should have various currencies, wiith exchange rates depending on various factors (frequency of contact, ennenimity, physical properties of the currency, etc). There is also the possibility of ancient currency for any world spawning more then an era with some degree of civilization (like TES).

Well, we're not sure if the Septim works on commodity (ala the gold standard) or fiat (the government said so).

Assuming the former which historically was the case in medieval/classical european period, the value of gold was in its weight so in essence, no one cared where the gold came from, only that it is gold. For example, the Romans will happily accept a gold coin with a Carthaginian's face on it as long as it was gold. That's why you see paintings of those bankers with the scale thingies: that's how they calculated gold.

EDIT:EDIT:

This scale thingie:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/6d/f1/f2/6df1f222ea40416431697c8f0c02c50a.jpg

[J's]

Originally posted by Delta 1038:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

The game uses one type of currency, ignores silver and copper (or brass for that matter), and you are surprised the economics don't work.

In real life most purchases would have been in copper (or brass if they used Brass coinage as well), with silver for for things like pots pans, and cutlery. Gold would have been for expertly made weapons, expertly made armour and property, very little else. Once you start charging gold for bread the entire system becomes unrealistic.

Somewhat off-topic to OP's thread but I would argue that Tamriel's economy isn't unrealistic, just different to what we're used to.

Historically, gold was valuable for two reasons: it was uncommon and it was shiny and in Tamriel, magic has eliminated the first factor making gold a pretty useless metal for the common Tamrielian?.

EDIT:

Originally posted by J's:

@ Toast : I agree that different area/kingdom of a very large world should have various currencies, wiith exchange rates depending on various factors (frequency of contact, ennenimity, physical properties of the currency, etc). There is also the possibility of ancient currency for any world spawning more then an era with some degree of civilization (like TES).

Well, we're not sure if the Septim works on commodity (ala the gold standard) or fiat (the government said so).

Assuming the former which historically was the case in medieval/classical european period, the value of gold was in its weight so in essence, no one cared where the gold came from, only that it is gold. For example, the Romans will happily accept a gold coin with a Carthaginian's face on it as long as it was gold. That's why you see paintings of those bankers with the scale thingies: that's how they calculated gold.

EDIT:EDIT:

This scale thingie:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/6d/f1/f2/6df1f222ea40416431697c8f0c02c50a.jpg

The weight is a factor, but an unthrustworthy nation could produce fake coins or more likely bars of a base metal lined with a more precious one. Arguably cutting the coin or bar would rule that out but that would be pretty boring in a game :)

Then it does not rule out alloys.

[Delta 1038]

Originally posted by J's:

The weight is a factor, but an unthrustworthy nation could produce fake coins or more likely bars of a base metal lined with a more precious one. Arguably cutting the coin or bar would rule that out but that would be pretty boring in a game :)

Then it does not rule out alloys.

There is a reason why people bite coins among other methods of determining forgeries. (Archimedes anyone?)

[pedantic_roc]

Originally posted by JDaremo Fireheart:

I hear ya, it can be. Wait for SKSE64 to come out and be stable and I'm sure there will be a couple good economy mods out. I would love to see one with a bit more realism myself.

I still haven't figured out where the tomatoes are coming from :D

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by pedantic_roc:

Originally posted by JDaremo Fireheart:

I hear ya, it can be. Wait for SKSE64 to come out and be stable and I'm sure there will be a couple good economy mods out. I would love to see one with a bit more realism myself.

I still haven't figured out where the tomatoes are coming from :D

I assume Elswyr, got to be a reason for all those Khajiit Merchants.

[pedantic_roc]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by pedantic_roc:

I still haven't figured out where the tomatoes are coming from :D

I assume Elswyr, got to be a reason for all those Khajiit Merchants.

If only they sold tomatoes.

[Delta 1038]

Originally posted by pedantic_roc:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

I assume Elswyr, got to be a reason for all those Khajiit Merchants.

If only they sold tomatoes.

Time to open CK.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by pedantic_roc:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

I assume Elswyr, got to be a reason for all those Khajiit Merchants.

If only they sold tomatoes.

Darn, maybe they sold out ;)

[pedantic_roc]

Originally posted by Delta 1038:

Originally posted by pedantic_roc:

If only they sold tomatoes.

Time to open CK.

Nah, I'm quite content with the thousand year old supply I find in tombs. Almost as daft as antique tinned foods in Fallout :-)

[J's]

Originally posted by Delta 1038:

Originally posted by J's:

The weight is a factor, but an unthrustworthy nation could produce fake coins or more likely bars of a base metal lined with a more precious one. Arguably cutting the coin or bar would rule that out but that would be pretty boring in a game :)

Then it does not rule out alloys.

There is a reason why people bite coins among other methods of determining forgeries. (Archimedes anyone?)

I agree that one could double check the weight against the volume as Archimedes did for that crown (alledgedly). But when is the last time you heard of merchants both weighting coins then dipping them in water to measure the volume?