The Axe

[Gorwe]

I always wanted to give this weapon a fair go and I suppose I will before I move over to Nioh 2, but...it fails on multiple levels(and it has repeatedly disappointed me - there's simply got to be something I'm missing here - even Mystics are very underwhelming):

Speed: It's just garbage.
Reach: Yet another garbage.

Those two combined practically make it unusable outside of Heavy Armor. And I'm not really a big fan of Heavy Armor. All it's good for are Heavy Armor(=Tate?) Kikkawa builds lol.

Sure, it has awesome burst damage, but why should one use it over the likes of Katana, Yari or Nodachi? The last one especially, come on, lol! It's like Axe++ .

Care to change my opinion? Because I'd really like to change it, but...also is it better in N2? Surely can't be worse.

[Urfarah]

You forgot something...

Moveset: Le garbáge.

[Just Aaron]

LOL. Classic Gorwe post. Tries a weapon for a few hours. Doesn`t understand how to use it properly. Makes a post complaining that the weapon sucks. Never considers it might just be him. I mean come on. You think the Mystic Arts are bad? Ha ha. The mystic art that grants a damage bonus when your ki hits zero allows axe users to do some insane damage. Every single attack should be getting the bonus. And why are you using light armor with the axe? Axe works off of Stamina so you can easily have B agility while using heavy armor.

If you don`t enjoy using the axe or just think that it isn`t fun to use, I can respect that. But don`t try to say the weapon sucks just because you don`t know what you are doing with it.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

LOL. Classic Gorwe post. Tries a weapon for a few hours. Doesn`t understand how to use it properly. Makes a post complaining that the weapon sucks. Never considers it might just be him. I mean come on. You think the Mystic Arts are bad? Ha ha. The mystic art that grants a damage bonus when your ki hits zero allows axe users to do some insane damage. Every single attack should be getting the bonus. And why are you using light armor with the axe? Axe works off of Stamina so you can easily have B agility while using heavy armor.

If you don`t enjoy using the axe or just think that it isn`t fun to use, I can respect that. But don`t try to say the weapon sucks just because you don`t know what you are doing with it.

I mean, I beat almost the entire NG with it and it didn't really improve. Oh and that MA? Suicidal - doesn't grant nearly enough for what it requires.

Care to review skills and their proper use, please? Because I see like three(Spark, H+E, Titan), maybe four(+Chop) skills that you should use. Come on, I know you know more.

Originally posted by Urfarah:

You forgot something...

Moveset: Le garbáge.

Well...yeah. It's not the most inspired of weapons, is it? Maybe it was before Noda appeared, but after? rofl.

[Just Aaron]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

LOL. Classic Gorwe post. Tries a weapon for a few hours. Doesn`t understand how to use it properly. Makes a post complaining that the weapon sucks. Never considers it might just be him. I mean come on. You think the Mystic Arts are bad? Ha ha. The mystic art that grants a damage bonus when your ki hits zero allows axe users to do some insane damage. Every single attack should be getting the bonus. And why are you using light armor with the axe? Axe works off of Stamina so you can easily have B agility while using heavy armor.

If you don`t enjoy using the axe or just think that it isn`t fun to use, I can respect that. But don`t try to say the weapon sucks just because you don`t know what you are doing with it.

I mean, I beat almost the entire NG with it and it didn't really improve. Oh and that MA? Suicidal - doesn't grant nearly enough for what it requires.

Care to review skills and their proper use, please? Because I see like three(Spark, H+E, Titan), maybe four(+Chop) skills that you should use. Come on, I know you know more.

Originally posted by Urfarah:

You forgot something...

Moveset: Le garbáge.

Well...yeah. It's not the most inspired of weapons, is it? Maybe it was before Noda appeared, but after? rofl.

I guess I can explain the benefits of a few more axe skills.

Rage: It`s pretty much a Carnage talisman that you can use an infinite number of times. However, it`s true value is for making the axe the best weapon in the game for zero ki builds. You see, Rage increases the amount of ki your attacks use. This is a good thing. With Rage your high stance strong attack will use all of or nearly all of your ki. Rage allows every single attack to get the zero ki damage bonus from the mystic art. Very powerful.

Battle Focus: This is kind of the opposite of Rage. It reduces the amount of ki your attacks use and is useful in several types of situations. Works great with mad spinner builds by allowing you to spin longer. Also works great early in the game when you might have low Stamina and have C agility. You can also combine Battle Focus with Rage to remove the ki increase from Rage. Useful if you don`t want the zero ki bonus or are using the other mystic art.

Lumber Chop: This is the axes big number attack. I never use it but in terms of damage it does get close to that of lai quickdraw, sotc, and other similar attacks. I`d recommend using Suppa scrolls and paralysis since it can be very difficult to use Lumber Chop in battle.

Roar: This is an attack I always have equipped. It allows you to block and run at the same time. It can also stagger the enemy or interrupt their attacks. I find it to be very useful when I need to make an escape and put some distance between me and the enemy. Probably works best against humans.

Rumbling Earth: Against a single target it is weaker than Lumber Chop. But against multiple targets it is much more useful. If you are using Kaido armor I highly recommend having Rumbling Earth equipped. In the Abyss I like to use a Suppa scroll and then take out a large group of enemies with one Rumbling Earth attack.

Mad Spinner: Also known as "spin to win". I think the name speaks for itself. Stack ki reduction with a large amount of ki and to increase your spin time. You can also combine it with health regen on hit to quickly heal yourself or an extraction talisman to quickly refill your LW gauge. And with the right timing you can use mad spinner while in LW for one of the best cheese builds in the game.

The stats the axe scales from: This is something everyone overlooks. Axe uses Body, Stamina, and Strength. This means you will have the maximum amount of health and max carry weight. You will be able to use heavy armor and still maintain B agility without having to put weight reduction on the armor. Very convenient.

I could go on but I don`t feel like writing a strategy guide on how to use the axe. TLDR: The axe is a good weapon. It may not be for everyone. I understand if you or anyone else don`t like the playstyle the axe provides but that doesn`t mean it is a bad weapon. It just means it isn`t your type of weapon.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

I mean, I beat almost the entire NG with it and it didn't really improve. Oh and that MA? Suicidal - doesn't grant nearly enough for what it requires.

Care to review skills and their proper use, please? Because I see like three(Spark, H+E, Titan), maybe four(+Chop) skills that you should use. Come on, I know you know more.




Well...yeah. It's not the most inspired of weapons, is it? Maybe it was before Noda appeared, but after? rofl.

I guess I can explain the benefits of a few more axe skills.

Rage: It`s pretty much a Carnage talisman that you can use an infinite number of times. However, it`s true value is for making the axe the best weapon in the game for zero ki builds. You see, Rage increases the amount of ki your attacks use. This is a good thing. With Rage your high stance strong attack will use all of or nearly all of your ki. Rage allows every single attack to get the zero ki damage bonus from the mystic art. Very powerful.

Battle Focus: This is kind of the opposite of Rage. It reduces the amount of ki your attacks use and is useful in several types of situations. Works great with mad spinner builds by allowing you to spin longer. Also works great early in the game when you might have low Stamina and have C agility. You can also combine Battle Focus with Rage to remove the ki increase from Rage. Useful if you don`t want the zero ki bonus or are using the other mystic art.

Lumber Chop: This is the axes big number attack. I never use it but in terms of damage it does get close to that of lai quickdraw, sotc, and other similar attacks. I`d recommend using Suppa scrolls and paralysis since it can be very difficult to use Lumber Chop in battle.

Roar: This is an attack I always have equipped. It allows you to block and run at the same time. It can also stagger the enemy or interrupt their attacks. I find it to be very useful when I need to make an escape and put some distance between me and the enemy. Probably works best against humans.

Rumbling Earth: Against a single target it is weaker than Lumber Chop. But against multiple targets it is much more useful. If you are using Kaido armor I highly recommend having Rumbling Earth equipped. In the Abyss I like to use a Suppa scroll and then take out a large group of enemies with one Rumbling Earth attack.

Mad Spinner: Also known as "spin to win". I think the name speaks for itself. Stack ki reduction with a large amount of ki and to increase your spin time. You can also combine it with health regen on hit to quickly heal yourself or an extraction talisman to quickly refill your LW gauge. And with the right timing you can use mad spinner while in LW for one of the best cheese builds in the game.

The stats the axe scales from: This is something everyone overlooks. Axe uses Body, Stamina, and Strength. This means you will have the maximum amount of health and max carry weight. You will be able to use heavy armor and still maintain B agility without having to put weight reduction on the armor. Very convenient.

I could go on but I don`t feel like writing a strategy guide on how to use the axe. TLDR: The axe is a good weapon. It may not be for everyone. I understand if you or anyone else don`t like the playstyle the axe provides but that doesn`t mean it is a bad weapon. It just means it isn`t your type of weapon.

Wrong. I actually quite enjoyed Noda and that is something Axe should aspire to be. Or, know what? Axe should be LESS Top Heavy. It is so reliant on Ethereals etc that...nobody(= sub 5% = negligible) truly experiences it. None of other weapons are so top heavy. Maybe Tonfa.

How about Clans or Spirits? There's gotta be something I'm missing here.

And for all the "you so tough", yeah, Katana can have full Heavy equip with ALL the parries AND Flowing Shadows(=uber mobility) - won't even mention Heavy Tonfa lol. Axe just trades, but Nioh is not Dark Souls 1 or 2 to allow that, not really, no. There was a nice reddit post I found out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nioh/comments/e5q5jk/gripevent_i_feel_like_the_axe_gets_worse_as_you/ . What do you think?

[Just Aaron]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

I guess I can explain the benefits of a few more axe skills.

Rage: It`s pretty much a Carnage talisman that you can use an infinite number of times. However, it`s true value is for making the axe the best weapon in the game for zero ki builds. You see, Rage increases the amount of ki your attacks use. This is a good thing. With Rage your high stance strong attack will use all of or nearly all of your ki. Rage allows every single attack to get the zero ki damage bonus from the mystic art. Very powerful.

Battle Focus: This is kind of the opposite of Rage. It reduces the amount of ki your attacks use and is useful in several types of situations. Works great with mad spinner builds by allowing you to spin longer. Also works great early in the game when you might have low Stamina and have C agility. You can also combine Battle Focus with Rage to remove the ki increase from Rage. Useful if you don`t want the zero ki bonus or are using the other mystic art.

Lumber Chop: This is the axes big number attack. I never use it but in terms of damage it does get close to that of lai quickdraw, sotc, and other similar attacks. I`d recommend using Suppa scrolls and paralysis since it can be very difficult to use Lumber Chop in battle.

Roar: This is an attack I always have equipped. It allows you to block and run at the same time. It can also stagger the enemy or interrupt their attacks. I find it to be very useful when I need to make an escape and put some distance between me and the enemy. Probably works best against humans.

Rumbling Earth: Against a single target it is weaker than Lumber Chop. But against multiple targets it is much more useful. If you are using Kaido armor I highly recommend having Rumbling Earth equipped. In the Abyss I like to use a Suppa scroll and then take out a large group of enemies with one Rumbling Earth attack.

Mad Spinner: Also known as "spin to win". I think the name speaks for itself. Stack ki reduction with a large amount of ki and to increase your spin time. You can also combine it with health regen on hit to quickly heal yourself or an extraction talisman to quickly refill your LW gauge. And with the right timing you can use mad spinner while in LW for one of the best cheese builds in the game.

The stats the axe scales from: This is something everyone overlooks. Axe uses Body, Stamina, and Strength. This means you will have the maximum amount of health and max carry weight. You will be able to use heavy armor and still maintain B agility without having to put weight reduction on the armor. Very convenient.

I could go on but I don`t feel like writing a strategy guide on how to use the axe. TLDR: The axe is a good weapon. It may not be for everyone. I understand if you or anyone else don`t like the playstyle the axe provides but that doesn`t mean it is a bad weapon. It just means it isn`t your type of weapon.

Wrong. I actually quite enjoyed Noda and that is something Axe should aspire to be. Or, know what? Axe should be LESS Top Heavy. It is so reliant on Ethereals etc that...nobody(= sub 5% = negligible) truly experiences it. None of other weapons are so top heavy. Maybe Tonfa.

How about Clans or Spirits? There's gotta be something I'm missing here.

And for all the "you so tough", yeah, Katana can have full Heavy equip with ALL the parries AND Flowing Shadows(=uber mobility) - won't even mention Heavy Tonfa lol. Axe just trades, but Nioh is not Dark Souls 1 or 2 to allow that, not really, no. There was a nice reddit post I found out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nioh/comments/e5q5jk/gripevent_i_feel_like_the_axe_gets_worse_as_you/ . What do you think?

Everything I typed is correct so I don`t know what you mean by "wrong". Again, just because you don`t know what to do with the axe or how to use it does not mean the weapon sucks. And Dark Souls has nothing to do with this conversation so their is no point in mentioning it. The axe takes practice in order to get good with it. As I said, it is fine if you don`t enjoy using the axe. That`s ok. But you are wrong when you say it is weaker or a less effective weapon. I can easily defeat every enemy in the game on the hardest difficulty using the axe. The truth is the axe is just as effective as any other weapon. It is meant to be a slow and powerful weapon. It`s not the weapons fault if you don`t like that style.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Wrong. I actually quite enjoyed Noda and that is something Axe should aspire to be. Or, know what? Axe should be LESS Top Heavy. It is so reliant on Ethereals etc that...nobody(= sub 5% = negligible) truly experiences it. None of other weapons are so top heavy. Maybe Tonfa.

How about Clans or Spirits? There's gotta be something I'm missing here.

And for all the "you so tough", yeah, Katana can have full Heavy equip with ALL the parries AND Flowing Shadows(=uber mobility) - won't even mention Heavy Tonfa lol. Axe just trades, but Nioh is not Dark Souls 1 or 2 to allow that, not really, no. There was a nice reddit post I found out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nioh/comments/e5q5jk/gripevent_i_feel_like_the_axe_gets_worse_as_you/ . What do you think?

Everything I typed is correct so I don`t know what you mean by "wrong". Again, just because you don`t know what to do with the axe or how to use it does not mean the weapon sucks. And Dark Souls has nothing to do with this conversation so their is no point in mentioning it. The axe takes practice in order to get good with it. As I said, it is fine if you don`t enjoy using the axe. That`s ok. But you are wrong when you say it is weaker or a less effective weapon. I can easily defeat every enemy in the game on the hardest difficulty using the axe. The truth is the axe is just as effective as any other weapon. It is meant to be a slow and powerful weapon. It`s not the weapons fault if you don`t like that style.

But it's not only me. Almost everyone agrees that the Axe FEELS wrong to use. I'd just give it more damage for all the downsides you have. Would you end up in overkill? Yes. Would most of people care? No, it'd feel better to use than it does right now.

That is with working within this framework. N2 allows you to break monotony(and such) with Burst Counters etc, giving a whole new life to the Axe. Here...idk. I don't see anyone but you and few others online defending it, but I've seen a lot of criticism towards it. One thing it definitely needs is for it to be less top heavy, that'd be a start.

[Just Aaron]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

Everything I typed is correct so I don`t know what you mean by "wrong". Again, just because you don`t know what to do with the axe or how to use it does not mean the weapon sucks. And Dark Souls has nothing to do with this conversation so their is no point in mentioning it. The axe takes practice in order to get good with it. As I said, it is fine if you don`t enjoy using the axe. That`s ok. But you are wrong when you say it is weaker or a less effective weapon. I can easily defeat every enemy in the game on the hardest difficulty using the axe. The truth is the axe is just as effective as any other weapon. It is meant to be a slow and powerful weapon. It`s not the weapons fault if you don`t like that style.

But it's not only me. Almost everyone agrees that the Axe FEELS wrong to use. I'd just give it more damage for all the downsides you have. Would you end up in overkill? Yes. Would most of people care? No, it'd feel better to use than it does right now.

That is with working within this framework. N2 allows you to break monotony(and such) with Burst Counters etc, giving a whole new life to the Axe. Here...idk. I don't see anyone but you and few others online defending it, but I've seen a lot of criticism towards it. One thing it definitely needs is for it to be less top heavy, that'd be a start.

Gorwe, if everyone on the internet said that the sword or Odachi is weak and FEELS wrong to use, would you agree with them? Just because the majority of people on the internet say something does not mean it is true. More often then not people are just repeating false information that they heard someone else say without actually verifying if it is true.

I can guarantee you that an axe user who has mastered the weapon and has a good axe build can easily kill things just as quickly as a sword or Odachi user. Axe users are not at a disadvantage. The axe is intended to be a slow but powerful weapon. If you don`t enjoy slow weapons then don`t use it. I do hate saying this but this is one of those get good type of things. Either use the axe more often and improve or use a different weapon.

And what do you mean give the axe more damage? It can already kill just about any boss in the game in one or two hits on the hardest difficulty. It doesn`t need any more damage. If the developers wanted to buff something they should improve the ki consumption on Roar. Or increase the duration of Battle Focus and Rage. Or get rid of the movement speed penalty on Adamantine. Or improve the charge time on Lumber Chop and Rumbling Earth. Things like that would be a welcome improvement and probably make the axe a more fun weapon to use.

EDIT: Giving heavy armor a much higher toughness rating would also be a welcome buff. The axe has a very low parry stat so it relies on toughness more than other weapons for blocking attacks.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

But it's not only me. Almost everyone agrees that the Axe FEELS wrong to use. I'd just give it more damage for all the downsides you have. Would you end up in overkill? Yes. Would most of people care? No, it'd feel better to use than it does right now.

That is with working within this framework. N2 allows you to break monotony(and such) with Burst Counters etc, giving a whole new life to the Axe. Here...idk. I don't see anyone but you and few others online defending it, but I've seen a lot of criticism towards it. One thing it definitely needs is for it to be less top heavy, that'd be a start.

Gorwe, if everyone on the internet said that the sword or Odachi is weak and FEELS wrong to use, would you agree with them? Just because the majority of people on the internet say something does not mean it is true. More often then not people are just repeating false information that they heard someone else say without actually verifying if it is true.

I can guarantee you that an axe user who has mastered the weapon and has a good axe build can easily kill things just as quickly as a sword or Odachi user. Axe users are not at a disadvantage. The axe is intended to be a slow but powerful weapon. If you don`t enjoy slow weapons then don`t use it. I do hate saying this but this is one of those get good type of things. Either use the axe more often and improve or use a different weapon.

And what do you mean give the axe more damage? It can already kill just about any boss in the game in one or two hits on the hardest difficulty. It doesn`t need any more damage. If the developers wanted to buff something they should improve the ki consumption on Roar. Or increase the duration of Battle Focus and Rage. Or get rid of the movement speed penalty on Adamantine. Or improve the charge time on Lumber Chop and Rumbling Earth. Things like that would be a welcome improvement and probably make the axe a more fun weapon to use.

EDIT: Giving heavy armor a much higher toughness rating would also be a welcome buff. The axe has a very low parry stat so it relies on toughness more than other weapons for blocking attacks.

Those are all nice ideas. While I'd LOVE more Toughness in general, I'm not for it because it'd have serious adverse effects. Like Duals or a Sword or, get this, Tonfa suddenly being able to have good Toughness stat without too much of a worry. Sword and Tonfa in specific would be problematic: first because it'd suddenly have entirely too many tools and the second because you could just block anything. I'm not satisfied with the state of the Armor system or the balance of Guardians(like Kato, KJ, TK, Rai, Ito and Suza completely dominating), but that's a whole another topic.

And you are right, I wouldn't say something is something if I didn't bear witness to it. And I did with the Axe. It's not that it's bad, it's deceptively simple, slow and entirely too top heavy. A nasty combo that kills off options, just like it did with Axe. Is it viable? Yes. Will you be better using anything else, most notably Noda in this case? Yes. For a long time.

And it's not that I don't even like slow weapons. I like the likes of Greatswords or Greataxes in Souls. Where you can simply poise through attacks and TRADE FAVORABLY. But that's the entire point. Most of Axe trades...aren't favorable(for a LONG time). So you end up relying on other crutches to get it going...while other options don't need those same crutches.

[Just Aaron]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

Gorwe, if everyone on the internet said that the sword or Odachi is weak and FEELS wrong to use, would you agree with them? Just because the majority of people on the internet say something does not mean it is true. More often then not people are just repeating false information that they heard someone else say without actually verifying if it is true.

I can guarantee you that an axe user who has mastered the weapon and has a good axe build can easily kill things just as quickly as a sword or Odachi user. Axe users are not at a disadvantage. The axe is intended to be a slow but powerful weapon. If you don`t enjoy slow weapons then don`t use it. I do hate saying this but this is one of those get good type of things. Either use the axe more often and improve or use a different weapon.

And what do you mean give the axe more damage? It can already kill just about any boss in the game in one or two hits on the hardest difficulty. It doesn`t need any more damage. If the developers wanted to buff something they should improve the ki consumption on Roar. Or increase the duration of Battle Focus and Rage. Or get rid of the movement speed penalty on Adamantine. Or improve the charge time on Lumber Chop and Rumbling Earth. Things like that would be a welcome improvement and probably make the axe a more fun weapon to use.

EDIT: Giving heavy armor a much higher toughness rating would also be a welcome buff. The axe has a very low parry stat so it relies on toughness more than other weapons for blocking attacks.

Those are all nice ideas. While I'd LOVE more Toughness in general, I'm not for it because it'd have serious adverse effects. Like Duals or a Sword or, get this, Tonfa suddenly being able to have good Toughness stat without too much of a worry. Sword and Tonfa in specific would be problematic: first because it'd suddenly have entirely too many tools and the second because you could just block anything. I'm not satisfied with the state of the Armor system or the balance of Guardians(like Kato, KJ, TK, Rai, Ito and Suza completely dominating), but that's a whole another topic.

And you are right, I wouldn't say something is something if I didn't bear witness to it. And I did with the Axe. It's not that it's bad, it's deceptively simple, slow and entirely too top heavy. A nasty combo that kills off options, just like it did with Axe. Is it viable? Yes. Will you be better using anything else, most notably Noda in this case? Yes. For a long time.

And it's not that I don't even like slow weapons. I like the likes of Greatswords or Greataxes in Souls. Where you can simply poise through attacks and TRADE FAVORABLY. But that's the entire point. Most of Axe trades...aren't favorable(for a LONG time). So you end up relying on other crutches to get it going...while other options don't need those same crutches.

I feel like we`ve just about reached an agreement so I`m going to end it here. And I definitely agree with you about the Guardian Spirits. They are indeed badly balanced with many of them being made completely useless due to how good Kato and Tengen are.

Cheers.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Just Aaron:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Those are all nice ideas. While I'd LOVE more Toughness in general, I'm not for it because it'd have serious adverse effects. Like Duals or a Sword or, get this, Tonfa suddenly being able to have good Toughness stat without too much of a worry. Sword and Tonfa in specific would be problematic: first because it'd suddenly have entirely too many tools and the second because you could just block anything. I'm not satisfied with the state of the Armor system or the balance of Guardians(like Kato, KJ, TK, Rai, Ito and Suza completely dominating), but that's a whole another topic.

And you are right, I wouldn't say something is something if I didn't bear witness to it. And I did with the Axe. It's not that it's bad, it's deceptively simple, slow and entirely too top heavy. A nasty combo that kills off options, just like it did with Axe. Is it viable? Yes. Will you be better using anything else, most notably Noda in this case? Yes. For a long time.

And it's not that I don't even like slow weapons. I like the likes of Greatswords or Greataxes in Souls. Where you can simply poise through attacks and TRADE FAVORABLY. But that's the entire point. Most of Axe trades...aren't favorable(for a LONG time). So you end up relying on other crutches to get it going...while other options don't need those same crutches.

I feel like we`ve just about reached an agreement so I`m going to end it here. And I definitely agree with you about the Guardian Spirits. They are indeed badly balanced with many of them being made completely useless due to how good Kato and Tengen are.

Cheers.

Thank you for a nice discussion. Cheers.

edit: What does the rest of you think?