Is Abyss balanced for cheese?

[Iri]

After reaching upgrade level 41 and still not being satisfied with my damage output, I decided to try push it further, and the only way to get higher level items seems to be the Abyss, as even The Fare for the Afterlife on WotN doesn't drop anything above +39.

So far I've made it to floor 50 and I'm currently stuck on Toyotomi Hideyori there. The highest upgrade level I've got as a drop so far (don't remember if it was from a boss or planes) was +41, with the majority of stuff being +37-39, so I should not be undergeared for this floor (or what would be the point of giving worse gear than player is meant to have?).
Still, I do pitiful damage. To the previous boss, Tachibana Muneshige, I did like 5% of his health with a finishing blow (with Kingo set bonus, Armor Piercer III and all three Rules of Thrusting) - don't know exact numbers as I don't have damage display on - and barely anything at all with normal attacks. On Hideyori I can land several attacks on succession due to his bigger openings, but as he's technically a yokai, he has infinite poise and as so can't be comboed, and together with running him out of ki being almost impossible due to how many yokai realm patches he can create, the only option left to me is chipping him down with normal attacks, and that takes forever - or at least long enough for me to make that one mistake that leads to instant death even through moth waifu oneshot immunity. I'll probably be able to beat him in a few dozen tries more, but it's kinda getting ridiculous.

I don't believe I have 'wrong' affixes or equipment too:
- Weapon: CCD-CTA-Fam, Grace of Amaterasu 5-piece (with 200 main scaling stat and just over 100 in spirit)
- Armor: Kingo 6-piece with attack boosts and 100% elemental damage reduction on block
- Accessories: +14.3% yokai CCD
Altogether that gives me over 4k attack in the status screen. I don't remember seeing much higher numbers anywhere, so I would assume that is enough.

On the other hand, I've seen some ridiculous shit people do. Killing boss in a few seconds with Living Weapon. Same with throwing weapons. Literal oneshot iai builds. For those, even if you increase boss health and damage several times more, nothing would be a challenge.

So, is the Abyss actually balanced for something in between, like a half-cheese magic and LW-using build, as devs for some reason didn't want to just nerf overpowered parts instead?..
Or how else am I supposed to get further gear upgrades if farming a thousand +40 items, couple hundred million gold and smashing it all together to reach +50 doesn't seem too good of an idea?

[Bithound]

Entire game is built around cheese,. And I mean even the players who don't use LW in the abyss are still just doing the same thing over and over. Such as iai loops to the enemies backs. Abyss in general is just more of Team Ninja "trying-hard" instead of actually creating balanced and engaging encounters. So in general it's best to just use LW build as it's the quickest way to progress through the floors. Or you can play wihtout LW but you will still end up having to use the same cookie cutter tactics, such as Daiba Washi spam/Iai loops/ Twisting spear into knockdown etc.

if you're having trouble in the Abyss before say floor 200 and you have over 4k damage then it's because you're not using these tactics against the human bosses. For Toyotomi Hideyori I think it is best to use paralyctic groundfire. I can't remember if Daiba Washi knocks him down or not.

[DooG Is Eternal]

dragon ninja is pretty good for half cheeseing. and duel properly when u want to 1v1 and fight a boss. kingo iirc u needs to attack from behind to make full use of the bonus. dragon ninja also gives u the extend invulnerable time which are really useful for dueling.

max u can do is +50 via normal soul matching anyway. just fuse disposable gears with the "reset soul match" affix to reduce the cost.

just needs to go higher floor, you can find +50 drops easily like around floor 150,
around 100 i think u can find +40 range. slowly work your way up.

i didnt rush too far into the abyss, since im more interested in test various wep and etc lol.

[Seyren 'D' Windsor]

Nioh and abyss are fine.

You are the problem. I've worked my way from floor 1 to over floor 200+ using nothing but quick attacks in heavy stance and an Odachi solo.

If you want to cheese the game, you will find no reason to push further in the abyss as a fairly medicore one shot living weapon build will get you through easily and invalidate the need for any gear upgrades. If you enjoy this style of gameplay, then sure, it's always the player choice.

I should also add that I've run into players who use living weapon cheese, and when they fight the boss normally, perhaps say when the cheese attempt fails, or in a normal co-op, they only have a dim idea on how to deal with the boss properly.

It's embarrassing.

[Seyren 'D' Windsor]

Also, weren't there videos of some guy doing Abyss boss fights (up to over floor 100+) using a luck set (swallowtail) and fairly unoptimised weapons? He didn't resort to any knockdowns, iai cheese or one shot builds. Just standard attack, dodge and predict.

And he finished the fights in about 2 minutes or less.

[Bithound]

Автор сообщения: Seyren 'Denton' Windsor

Also, weren't there videos of some guy doing Abyss boss fights (up to over floor 100+) using a luck set (swallowtail) and fairly unoptimised weapons? He didn't resort to any knockdowns, iai cheese or one shot builds. Just standard attack, dodge and predict.

And he finished the fights in about 2 minutes or less.

Floor 100 is nothing. I mean that is still in the same terriroty as WOTN campaign. You can't even get a +50 weapon from floor 100. If you want to talk about people playing through the Abyss to the end they're not doing it with luck build and running around spamming quick attack.

[Squerol]

f@ck abyss man, same bosses over and over, need to be on drugs to finish 999 floors and not die from boredom lol

[DooG Is Eternal]

Автор сообщения: Squerol

f@ck abyss man, same bosses over and over, need be on drugs to finish 999 floors and not die from boredom lol

Exactly lol

[Seyren 'D' Windsor]

Автор сообщения: MudShadow

Автор сообщения: Seyren 'Denton' Windsor

Also, weren't there videos of some guy doing Abyss boss fights (up to over floor 100+) using a luck set (swallowtail) and fairly unoptimised weapons? He didn't resort to any knockdowns, iai cheese or one shot builds. Just standard attack, dodge and predict.

And he finished the fights in about 2 minutes or less.

Floor 100 is nothing. I mean that is still in the same terriroty as WOTN campaign. You can't even get a +50 weapon from floor 100. If you want to talk about people playing through the Abyss to the end they're not doing it with luck build and running around spamming quick attack.

Uhm I am missing your point entirely. His post was about whether you need to cheese the abyss, and the answer is no. And you still don't need to cheese the abyss even at floor 900.

That's because abyss scaling stops very early, and even if it doesn't, your gear consistently improves and outpaces the scaling.

So yes, if you can beat floor 100 without cheese, you can do the same all the way to floor 998. 999 is the exception.

By the way, floor 35++ already outpaces WotN campaign. You can test the damage dealt and received.

[Seyren 'D' Windsor]

Автор сообщения: Squerol

f@ck abyss man, same bosses over and over, need to be on drugs to finish 999 floors and not die from boredom lol

Diablo 3 says hello. Haha. So does just about any other ARPG.

[Iri]

Автор сообщения: James D Bad RAger

max u can do is +50 via normal soul matching anyway. just fuse disposable gears with the "reset soul match" affix to reduce the cost.

If anything beyond +50 is just direct drops, I won't bother. Getting a specific weapon I want with a specific grace I want on it as a random drop? With my luck?
And cost reduction or not, to make a +50 out of +40 I'll need over a thousand of them and over a thousand soul match operations.

Автор сообщения: Seyren 'Denton' Windsor

Nioh and abyss are fine. You are the problem. I've worked my way from floor 1 to over floor 200+ using nothing but quick attacks in heavy stance and an Odachi solo.

I'm not as good and don't have nearly enough patience to do that consistently against most bosses. Still, I made it this far without magic, ninjitsu, LW or cheese like iailoop - but now boss health inflation is starting to really get to me.

Автор сообщения: Seyren 'Denton' Windsor

Also, weren't there videos of some guy doing Abyss boss fights (up to over floor 100+) using a luck set (swallowtail) and fairly unoptimised weapons? He didn't resort to any knockdowns, iai cheese or one shot builds. Just standard attack, dodge and predict.

And he finished the fights in about 2 minutes or less.

He used a whole bunch of magic/ninjitsu buffs, getting a pretty high damage output out of that build.

[DooG Is Eternal]

Toyotomi, what i do is hug and cut him. if u wants to duel with him. wait for his move guard evade(but not actually blocking, just for safety) left side of my screen. he has this tengu esque ai once u hug him...

[Squerol]

Автор сообщения: Seyren 'Denton' Windsor

So does just about any other ARPG.

ummmmmm no
drugs still didn't worn off and u still in abyss with Your mind dude if You speak that nonsense lol kek xd rotfl

[Seyren 'D' Windsor]

I think he used carnage, rather than leeching with critical health. That's fine. You should use either carnage or power pills, especially during intervals where you can heavily punish the boss.

Skipping out entirely on ninjutus or magic might be overdoing it though. Even with no investments in Onmyo or Ninjutsu, and assuming base stats of 5-6 with magic and dex, you can still pick up quick change, and at least carnage.

[DooG Is Eternal]

Автор сообщения: Iris of the White

Автор сообщения: James D Bad RAger

max u can do is +50 via normal soul matching anyway. just fuse disposable gears with the "reset soul match" affix to reduce the cost.

If anything beyond +50 is just direct drops, I won't bother. Getting a specific weapon I want with a specific grace I want on it as a random drop? With my luck?
And cost reduction or not, to make a +50 out of +40 I'll need over a thousand of them and over a thousand soul match operations.

its luck reliant when u dont "force" it, but everything can be obtainted with proper planning.
u can +51 and above easily by defiling gears with affix soul match inheritance at higher level.
grace can be obtainted easily via crafting, defile and save scumming

[Bithound]

Автор сообщения: Seyren 'Denton' Windsor

Автор сообщения: MudShadow

Floor 100 is nothing. I mean that is still in the same terriroty as WOTN campaign. You can't even get a +50 weapon from floor 100. If you want to talk about people playing through the Abyss to the end they're not doing it with luck build and running around spamming quick attack.

Uhm I am missing your point entirely. His post was about whether you need to cheese the abyss, and the answer is no. And you still don't need to cheese the abyss even at floor 900.

That's because abyss scaling stops very early, and even if it doesn't, your gear consistently improves and outpaces the scaling.

So yes, if you can beat floor 100 without cheese, you can do the same all the way to floor 998. 999 is the exception.

The AByss scales damage and defences to the end. A shot from a rifleman does about 12k damage on floor 900+. The Abyss also continues to add debuffs. And double bosses appear at floor 120+. I wonder why you're still on floor 200 and this person who was using a luck build is only on floor 100? feel free to show footage of players completing the Abyss running around spamming quick attacks on floor 800-999. I'm sure the footage doesn't exist because even if it's possible to accomplish no one is stupid enough to waste their time to try.

With that in mind, the Abyss is made for cheese. 999 floors with the odds stacked against the player massively means every player after a certain point is going to take the most efficient route to getting to the end.