Unfortunately I don't like it at all

[Zyrconia]

Don't read this, I'm just venting, but...

I've been hearing now for 20+ years how good System Shock is (to be fair, I always heard it is also clunky and hard to get into, so play SS2 instead) and SS and SS2 have been on my backlog since forever. So when the remake finally came out, after years of uncertainty, I instantly purchased it.

And the first 5-7 hours were pretty good. Now I'm 12 hours in and don't think of SS as being a particularly good game.

And a huge missed opportunity for the devs.

Because my biggest problem with it is the sheer aimlessness of it. I love big games with complicated level designs you get lost in, games that don't hold your hand. But there is an upper limit to this apparently. For the first time even in my gaming history, I'm experiencing a game where I do not know where I am, what my goals are, when I'm progressing I have no idea what I have achieved and where I am in relation to my goal, since I don't even know the goal.

The first level was good and took me 5 hours to thoroughly explore, looking into every nook and cranny.

But the second was bad and completely aimless. The third I don't even remember. I know that I reached the laser button and pressed it. And I know that you are supposed to turn off the laser. Where and how have no idea.

By today's standards the level design is horrific. Nothing in that room screamed “yes, you have reached the laser control room”. Or the button will fire the laser. This is probably faithful to the original, but still bad.

Now I'm on the reactor level, hacked two terminals which opened up something. At least the yellow text which doesn't stay on screen long enough told me so. What did they open? Have no idea. You are supposed to first encounter the problem, then through exploration solve it. I reached a security override for the reactor. Security override doing what? There is no code for it on the level. I found a code that was not labelled on another level and luckily I made a note. It was for this security override. Which I turned on on off. Still can't do more there. There is a level I don't have authorization for and a energy lift that is locked. What even is the goal there. Turning off the reactor? Are you even supposed to be here at this stage. Were you supposed to explore the reactor with such high levels of radiation and fight the foes or were you supposed to turn it off first.

This game feel like half translated to me. 100% completely aimless, now knowing where you are, what you goals are and when you pull a lever, not knowing how that affected your progress.

Plus all the other small things, in no particular other:

1. The level design is completely absent. Just big and complicated for the sake of it being big, no rhyme or reason. Each level has a theme and a few “set pieces”, but in general it is nonsense, does not feel like deigned by a level designer or hand made.
2. The item management is completely overdone and adds nothing to the game. Item management is only good when it serves a purpose. Here with the overall way too small inventory I'm constantly running out of space. There is nothing to be gained by every couple of minutes having to walk over to the recycler. Nor from salving stuff in the inventory if the recycler is too far away. Like the level design, this feature does not feel designed and balanced. I'm swimming in currency on hard. If this was the intended balance and design, junk should auto salvage and it shouldn't be more lucrative to take stuff to the recycler.
3. I'm not into diegetic design, i.e. what Dead Space did with the UI, but here it would be a great mix. It is very hard to tell what ammo you have equipped and if you are in burst mode or not, etc.
4. Unless somehow jump works in surprising ways and you can scale walls, I got stuck in the reactor level. Had to use gas grenades to kill myself.
5. The whole endless revival medical pods system is stupid and was stupid in all the games that attempted it. What's the challenge in endlessly throwing yourself into the meat-grinder as an immortal in a game with saves. It makes healing unnecessary in some levels and the best use for it is teleporting.
6. Ladders are a bit janky.
7. The design of the game screams survival horror on hard. The way I played it. Yet I'm swimming in ammo and healing. This game would greatly benefit from a mode where every shots counts and resource management is very important. Why even have a limited inventory if resource management is trivial.
8. Why do audiologs have such a long animation. Why is holding F is so unresponsive? Why do they all start with and awkward pause and static. Why are most completely uninteresting. This would have been the perfect opportunity to give context to your actions. Things like “God Mike, you are such an idiot. Why did you just try to walk up to the reactor with no preparation? Don't you know there is a security override. Let me explain to you like to a 5 year old how this space-base works and why the security override is in place and what it does.” That would have been a nice way to reward exploration, seeing how well hidden some of the audio logs are. This must be the worst audiolog implementation in gaming.
9. The space flight VR hacking is truly horrendous. I know what a major face lift it got, but yikes. A mode where you completely lack agency, enemies will shoot randomly and you just strafe and prey you won't get hit. Quite hard on hard. Plus, a very stupid interaction: if everything is on hard and you die, you die in real life, but first there is a long animation of you warping back to reality, then a long animation of you dieing, then a long game over screen. Luckily, there is a very short window where F9 is responsive and you can save yourself the wasted time.
10. Every time you enter VR there is message telling you you unlocked the basic attack. Fine I guess... But sometimes you get new options, like a decoy, without having them picked up. Just as you load into VR. There features are never explained, like the rest of the game. But if you die and a medical bed revives you, the extra item is not there and you won't get it back ever. So basically the first time you try a VR hack is the easiest, heavily incentivizing you to quick-save before.
11. At least one elevator is not marked on the map.

And probably more I forgot. Should have taken notes.

Anyway, enough ranting. Don't know if I'll play more. SS has good ideas, in fact I can see all the things it invented, but poor execution.

If not I'll try SS2, see if it any better.

Or even better, replay Deus Ex or Prey... Now those are masterpieces!

[680x0]

there are most certainly mods for fallout 2, deus ex, thief and system shock.. i have them all modded myself.

[recursor]

Originally posted by Psychic:

Originally posted by recursor:

There's very little that will end up aimless if you do pay attention to those logs:

Very nice!
You should put this in a Guide (on Steam) so that people can check it out.

Fair point. I've compiled that into a guide and added a couple more sections. Pretty easy reference for anyone who gets lost or doesn't think that the game lets you know what to accomplish.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2989188623

Looking back, there's a little bit where you aren't given a step by step. Mainly stuff like bypassing security for the antennas on engineering. But that's contained on that level and it's not unclear what your objective is, you're just doing some dungeoneering to get there.

[Psychic]

Originally posted by recursor:

Originally posted by Psychic:

Very nice!
You should put this in a Guide (on Steam) so that people can check it out.

Fair point. I've compiled that into a guide and added a couple more sections. Pretty easy reference for anyone who gets lost or doesn't think that the game lets you know what to accomplish.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2989188623

Looking back, there's a little bit where you aren't given a step by step. Mainly stuff like bypassing security for the antennas on engineering. But that's contained on that level and it's not unclear what your objective is, you're just doing some dungeoneering to get there.

Thanks, I wish I had this before I finished playing last weekend, I had to search online a few times because I was stuck but it was never easy to search for what I needed.
This guide will help a lot of people.

[rockjaw]

Originally posted by KntkyFriedCasual:

Thank you for taking the time to explain why you didn't like this game, I get tired of not being able to understand negative experiences. Unfortunately this isn't your niche and for people like me it's a rare treat to get games like this every once in a while.

I have trouble getting sucked into games these days and this one I can't seem to put down, although I tell myself to take a break once I hit cyberspace because to a degree I can understand this part of the game to be underwhelming.

The aimlessness you describe is one of the reasons this game is so immersive to me because the level design and lack of a clear direction puts me into a situation where I need to explore ever nook and cranny until I get a sense of where I need to go. This is fun for me. I like how cool everything looks and every now and then I get to interact with something that doesn't give you any bonuses but adds some charm to the game.

Many of the other things you describe are things most people tend to generalize as "tedious" and "cumbersome" and I hope you understand it all boils down to a persons taste. I personally like the restriction because to me it hasn't felt overdone and I'm currently almost done exploring storage 13 hours in.

I'm not here to question your taste or to prove you wrong, but to say that for people like me this game is a freaking success.

This is my feeling as well. The nonlinear levels and lack of obvious direction are a huge plus for immersion. I never felt completely aimless. I read the logs and had a general idea of what I should be looking for... but I'm also lost... and that's a good thing! The hacker doesn't know this place. It's refreshing to play a game where I don't feel funneled into a predetermined path. I can actually visit the levels of the ship out of order and go the wrong way. That's great!

I actually felt intrinsically motivated to explore every nook and cranny in this game. Maybe that is a factor for what type of player will enjoy it. I get the idea that OP arrives on a level and is frustrated because they can't immediately work out where to go. But each level is a puzzle itself. You have to have patience and explore the entire thing. Do that and you will find all the info and items you need.

[Zyrconia]

Originally posted by KntkyFriedCasual:

Thank you for taking the time to explain why you didn't like this game, I get tired of not being able to understand negative experiences.

You're welcome. I'm not sure if that was sarcasm, it is hard to tell in written English as a non native speaker sometimes. I choose to take it as non sarcasm.

Originally posted by KntkyFriedCasual:

Unfortunately this isn't your niche and for people like me it's a rare treat to get games like this every once in a while.

Immersive sims are 100% my niche. I played all of them and liked or loved all of them. All do right things. The only exception is SS. Since we have only one exception, it is fair to say that is in fact my niche.

Since SS is so different and old, it is fair to say that it is an immersive sim before the time that immersive sims came to have the elements I love. Some sort of primordial immersive sim.

And the other exception when it comes to stealth is Thief. Thief is so different and old that the things that I consider as good stealth design were not yet invented and put into a game.

Maybe I really dislike old archaic design that are an order of magnitude worse than what tiles 5-10 years after were doing?

Originally posted by KntkyFriedCasual:

The aimlessness you describe is one of the reasons this game is so immersive to me because the level design and lack of a clear direction puts me into a situation where I need to explore ever nook and cranny until I get a sense of where I need to go. This is fun for me.

For me too. Great level design that feeds exploration and creative use of mechanics is what is fun for me. But it needs to lead somewhere.

I want to explore every nook and cranny until I figure out how to solve the problem. but it needs to happen eventually. With great pacing I might argue. This did not happen in 12 hours of SS. In fact, my mental image of what I need to do has not evolved significantly from the first audio log I found. The whole thing just did not come together for me.

Originally posted by KntkyFriedCasual:

I'm not here to question your taste or to prove you wrong, but to say that for people like me this game is a freaking success.

Have you tried later immersive sim titles. Have you not perceived an huge gap between their design?

Originally posted by rockjaw:

I actually felt intrinsically motivated to explore every nook and cranny in this game. Maybe that is a factor for what type of player will enjoy it. I get the idea that OP arrives on a level and is frustrated because they can't immediately work out where to go. But each level is a puzzle itself. You have to have patience and explore the entire thing. Do that and you will find all the info and items you need.

That is not a fair assessment. I spent 5 h only on the first level. Explored thoroughly. Found nothing of interest or any trace of good design. Then I spend about 2h on 3 more levels each, for a total of 12 hours.

So after spending 12 hours in horrendous uninspired primitive level design and exploring, trying to milk the game for what it is worth, I couldn't figure out where to go. That is hardly "immediately".

The levels, if you can call them that, aren't really puzzles. Just a bunch empty inane random rectangular boxes, with 1-2 key puzzles touched in some corner you only find when your exploration reaches starts trending to 95+% of the level.

[Sabin Stargem]

Originally posted by KntkyFriedCasual:

The aimlessness you describe is one of the reasons this game is so immersive to me because the level design and lack of a clear direction puts me into a situation where I need to explore ever nook and cranny until I get a sense of where I need to go.

I would like to recommend a game: La-Mulana. An archaeology platformer metroidvania that is very aimless, requiring you to collect information and piece together what it is saying, and where to apply that knowledge. It is a game that I am willing to often shill for, because I think it is a genuinely special experience, just as Thief, System Shock(s), and other great games are.

Also, I would recommend Ancestors: The Humankind Odyssey. That one is an open-world game where you guide apes, attempting to evolve them into humans over millions of years. You start with trying to evolve the neurons that permit ambidexterity, senses of hearing and smell, and so forth. There are no missions to complete, just the desire to ensure the survival of your kin. I think that most open world games feel weird and unnatural, but this one fits the nature of a open world almost perfectly.

I can't recommend the above two games enough.

[680x0]

i'm intrigued to a degree. so like.. if i don't like a game, i don't play it but.. i wouldn't post a discussion explaining why i do which is why i am intrigued. system shock must have left an impression on you in some way, regardless of the fact that you don't like it, or you wouldn't be here discussing it with us. no disrespect at all in any way.. so can i ask.. is there anything you DID like about it?

[recursor]

Originally posted by Zyrconia:

So after spending 12 hours in horrendous uninspired primitive level design and exploring, trying to milk the game for what it is worth, I couldn't figure out where to go. That is hardly "immediately".

Did you listen to the log talking about the resistance holing up behind the radiation trench and the junction box to enable the force bridge? The log about destroying the cpu nodes on the level to make the lift functional again? The log where they explain that they left graffiti pointing out the cyborg conversion chamber?

How about the very first transmission from Earth telling you to go to D'Arcy's office? Or the log in that office telling you what to do to stop the laser?

I would have thought that spending hours "exploring thoroughly" would include just listening to what was given to you, or checking on the transcript in your log if you missed it.

[rockjaw]

Originally posted by Zyrconia:

That is not a fair assessment. I spent 5 h only on the first level. Explored thoroughly. Found nothing of interest or any trace of good design. Then I spend about 2h on 3 more levels each, for a total of 12 hours.

So after spending 12 hours in horrendous uninspired primitive level design and exploring, trying to milk the game for what it is worth, I couldn't figure out where to go. That is hardly "immediately".

The levels, if you can call them that, aren't really puzzles. Just a bunch empty inane random rectangular boxes, with 1-2 key puzzles touched in some corner you only find when your exploration reaches starts trending to 95+% of the level.

System Shock is a proto-immersive sim. It's essentially a old school dungeon crawler with some very early immersive sim qualities but not as in-depth as the games that it inspired.

It sounds like it's not for you but to call it bad... I can't agree. I've enjoyed it a lot. I'm glad that it is different than Prey or Deus Ex. I've played those games and I will play them again. But playing this has been a unique experience.

[OneDeadLombax]

Originally posted by Lord Nighthawk:

I have no idea whats going on with people today, they don´t want to play a game anymore, they just want to work down a working list and then be happy to be done.....but then it´s not gaming anymore, then it´s just the same ♥♥♥♥ like at your workplace just with different graphics.

This is a completely backwards take.

What you're describing with system shock is exactly the same as work. You still have the checklist, you just can't see it.

The reason people are tapping out is precisely because they want to play a GAME.

Running around in some "immersive simulator" figuring out codes, reading emails, solving puzzles, disengaging safety mechanisms, finding the override to jettison the grove, and figuring out what they're even supposed to be doing, etc. is work.

Blasting each other in team deathmatch and whoever gets to 100 kills first wins is a game.

Trying to get Mario past the enemies and obstacles to the goal is a game

Whoever runs out of health first in Street Fighter is the loser, is a game.

Hunting down two separate blueprints and then the requisite parts and combinations to build a beacon using machines at the end of Thief 2 is uh....not a game. It's closer to working in an auto parts store.

[680x0]

agreed. although i think about it like this.. they are all games and they all require work, just different kinds of games that require different kinds of work. some games rely on reflexes and precision.. others.. well.. like system shock.. require a notepad, dedication and tenacity.

[Lord Nighthawk]

Originally posted by OneDeadLombax:

This is a completely backwards take.

What you're describing with system shock is exactly the same as work. You still have the checklist, you just can't see it.

The reason people are tapping out is precisely because they want to play a GAME.

Running around in some "immersive simulator" figuring out codes, reading emails, solving puzzles, disengaging safety mechanisms, finding the override to jettison the grove, and figuring out what they're even supposed to be doing, etc. is work.

Blasting each other in team deathmatch and whoever gets to 100 kills first wins is a game.

Trying to get Mario past the enemies and obstacles to the goal is a game

Whoever runs out of health first in Street Fighter is the loser, is a game.

Hunting down two separate blueprints and then the requisite parts and combinations to build a beacon using machines at the end of Thief 2 is uh....not a game. It's closer to working in an auto parts store.

Originally posted by 6502:

agreed. although i think about it like this.. they are all games and they all require work, just different kinds of games that require different kinds of work. some games rely on reflexes and precision.. others.. well.. like system shock.. require a notepad, dedication and tenacity.

Maybe all are right, as the definition of work and enjoyment is a personal thing. For me SS is a game as i can actively use my mind and i prefer that in gaming, compared to a super mario that sometimes feels more like work when my fingers start to hurt and cramp. I also can´t immerse into something like a mario while in SS i get lost.

Comparing System Shock to something like thief or deus ex is also a bit harsh. Genres as well as graphics already had evolved a bit more and split up, hell, from SS to thief it´s 4 years, these 4 years where like a whole century of development difference. In System Shock you have to puzzle together your mission, in DX and thief you have pregiven objectives but options for the ways to solve them.

Implenting optional paths requires a more complex gaming area (for stuff like vents, sewers etc.) and in 1994 that was simply not possible - as well as stealth was nothing to talk about at that point - ai was dumb, simple and as good as the systems allowed it (the 486ers had already enough to do with the graphics). So they had to find different ways to build up a dense atmosphere.

[Clyan]

op, you dont even need to know your objective, just try to explore the whole map and youll eventually solve all the puzzles and objectives necessary to get every map complete. its that easy. doesnt take 2 braincells to come up with this. poor you

[fourfourtwo79]

Originally posted by Zyrconia:

Thief has nothing on Splinter cell, Hitman, Deus Ex when played stealth, especially the new titles, MGS, Dishonored, and no amount of good but so large levels you'll get bored of them before finishing them will change that.

They're not. MGS and Splinter Cell in particular are completely different games to boot. In parts because Thief is and was more than just a Stealth Game, Capital S, Capital G (just as Shock was never but a storifiedish FPS). Never gave a hoot about Splinter Cell or anything. But Thief.....

Of course, people would pretend stuff like the genius Bonehoard in T1 would also be bad design nowadays. You go on a "mission" of aquiring this magic horn. Only it's burried beneath a maze of crypts and caves and traps that supposedly nobody ever yet returned from. With at one point even the game's character just noting down a "WHERE AM I?" on his map. Then you hear the (3D) sounds of that horn you came looking for-- and can actually navigate by that all the way to your destination.

Not only is this the culmination of what Looking Glass stood for (approaching VR from a software perspective -- there's only so much expensive headgear can do if the application isn't up for all that). For once, this dangerous place people got lost (and died) in doesn't merely exist in a cutscene or lore.txt as windows dressing, but in the actual design and gameplay. I'd agree that T1 in particular overdid the maze-like idea of level design. But this take on design is brilliance to this day and barely ever further explored. (Even more astounding is that the AI is actually able to navigate the huge and sprawling maps themselves, barely missing a beat as they return to their patrol routes after they have chased you all the way through Lord Bafford's sprawling estate and back).

To quote a recent interview with LGS alumni: "We were trying to build the holodeck." https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/system-shock-the-oral-history-of-a-forward-thinking-pc-classic

SS is still early levels, mind you. It's basically the answer to issues perceived in Underworld 1+2 (the map layouts can also still be traced back to Underworld... they're basically dungeon crawls, albeit with real-time simulation of light, physics, AI and even food rotting -- VR simulation and stuff). And who knows where they had headed in the long term. But: Had they succeeded and gained mass followings, quite a few games would look drastically different today. And not remind you at every step that you're "Just playing a damn game".

Sigh.

[Loop123]

Originally posted by Zyrconia:

Don't read this, I'm just venting, but...


…..
If not I'll try SS2, see if it any better.

Or even better, replay Deus Ex or Prey... Now those are masterpieces!

While I agree with some of your comments I get an impression you are too used to modern gaming where you don’t need to use brain at all. Not one bit. Point 8 you make is a good example - do you really need someone to tell you not to get into the reactor? You can’t figure it out yourself? This is a sad state of games and gamers these days. Just follow the arrow and press left mouse or other button when prompted. I despise most of them. I must say I’ve never played the original SS back in the days but I really liked SS2 and kind of Prey too (although after finishing it I never played it again, there’s something odd about it). This game is hard not because it does not hold your hand but because it requires you to change the way you think. I love the complicated level design and rooms with no function to the story as it adds to the challenge and feels less on the rail like most games where you can’t go wrong. I play this on all 1 with only 2 for puzzles. I thought carefully before deciding the difficulty after trying the demo and I really enjoy the experience of exploring the station and reading memos etc. Perhaps you should consider it. There are plenty of mods already which make the game better (like items management). I am a little bit ahead of you story wise (and yes, I cleaned up the reactor from foes by coming back to the decontamination chamber which I assumed was there for a reason. I had to do it few times (at the same story point as yourself) - but I’m on 1 maybe it’s impossible on your difficulty). However the game tells you to go somewhere else at the beginning of this level or shortly before via a voice message (maybe it’s just a story 1 though?) so I’m not sure I had to go into the reactor this early as it was quite hard - maybe not hard but I felt I’m no ready for it to be done easily. Still, it was my choice and I was able to do it even I’m not sure was it the right time and that’s why I like this game. I decide what I do next which is a huge refreshment for my brain.
As for the revive chambers… yeah I question them too. They are useful if you don’t want to redo the things you’ve done before you died at a costs of little health as you don’t regenerate at 100% and I kind of like it - it’s another decision to make between the chamber and the last save you’ve made. I was very critical of this game before playing it as I’m not a fan of pixel graphics (I must admit though that after forcing in game HDR and SSGI and getting rid of all ambient lights via a mod this game looks awesome) but now after I had tried it and “fixed” few n i ggles with mods I can’t wait to get back to experience the station each evening. It gives me huge feeling of nostalgia to old times where games forced your brain to work. I even start to like the pixel approach as it makes mind to fill in the gaps. Just like the original half life looked so “real” back in the days - but it didn’t - my brain made it feel real. Something most games today lack of - even the ones with the best graphics (which still suck btw - I am an architectural designer and visualiser so I’m very sensitive to how things look and feel in real life). It’s not a perfect game, it has many flaws, it’s clunky at times, combat feels weird and I hate the cyber space (I think the long intro getting in and out hides the level loading in the background so your criticism of it it’s a bit strange. Would you prefer a static screen instead?)
Maybe it’s not your cup of tea and I completely get it but maybe it requires a little adjustment and understanding from your side too. If you can make it the rewards are worth it. But if you can’t you should move on. Life’s to short. I’ve never finished Atomic heart as it was such a bore (even when modded to get rid of some silly developer decisions) …don’t feel bad about it.
You’ve vented here, fair enough you are fully entitled to your own opinion and I’ve done same thing many times but this will not change neither the game nor your enjoyment.