Why don't "thinking man" games like this exist anymore?

[The Phasmid]

I've barely scratched the surface of the game, but I'm several hours in. The levels feel like a labyrinthine puzzle, and there are puzzles within the puzzle. No checkpoints. No mention of how to propel throughout the game. Only vague mentions of "areas of interests" through audio and text logs.

You truly feel "lost in space". I see many people complaining about this aspect of the game online. "I don't know what to do. I don't know how to progress. Where are the way points and objectives?"

It's an interesting subject for game theory on the devolution of world exploration.

[The Phasmid]

I see the viewpoint of responsible parents not having enough time to invest. That's completely understandable. However, as others have pointed out, the medium as a whole seems to have abandoned hardcore exploration in games. System Shock feels like a breath of fresh air in that regard. Here's a lead pipe and a key card. Now...go figure it out on your own.

[Zalugar]

引用自 OneDeadLombax：

Can you explain exactly why one should have to work hard at a video game?

What's wrong with wanting intellectual stimulation and critical thinking? I love it when a game gives my brain the wringer; so many more just don't. A lot of what you listed off as "hard work" isn't hard work; your standard has just fallen to the point that you think it is. I didn't really pay attention to any audio logs and the only thing I had to think to figure out was to push the big laser button after turning on the shield. Otherwise I'd mostly just skim them for codes.

The only cutscenes this game forces you to watch through is a portion of the intro sequence (you can skip most of it), the Bridge level intro, and the ending that you can alt f4 out of if you don't care. Oh, and I suppose boss zoom-in intros that are like 5 seconds.

Let's use Dark Souls as an example. That game actually requires a decent amount of critical thinking, more than System Shock even. When it came out, people were infuriated with its "unfair" difficulty and lack of direction. They would rage quit over it, even. But then it got more popular, streamers playing it would get more views, and people suddenly discovered they had patience for it. It spawned an entire sub-genre that drastically changed gaming as a whole (even if Demon's Souls came first).

In the end, if people don't have time or patience for a video game and want to experience it, they'll just watch someone else play it. Personally, I'd rather not see the death of creativity in video games in attempt to cater to the masses.

[lukandroll]

引用自 OneDeadLombax：

引用自 Luk：

I don't get this argument of I don't have time for games like System Shock
You can play System Shock 3 or 4 hours a week and still progress, and enjoy it, and have a blast, in all its difficulty
Modern games have acustomed people to be lazy, and go for instant gratification, like most media today, because its easy money
In the end its you who decide if you want to use your brain or not, and if the common gamer would realize this, and gave the middle finger to the mega billion companies that are exploiting their own lazyness, those same companies would start making games like this again
I don't know who started this trend though, if companies or people, but its a testament of these days

Can you explain exactly why one should have to work hard at a video game?

Because if a game is hard enought to make you think, you overcome that difficulty with intelligence, and having to use your intelligence to solve problems on something is fun, and always a rewarding experience to yourself
Take chess, chess was an amazing game to play before video games existed, because of that, because you had to use your brain to win your opponent, and every match felt like a real battle of intelligence, win or lose
I'm not talking about from software difficulty here, I'm talking about thinking, something that it seems to be the missing link these days, from social media, to art and entertainment, to life itself
Thinking should be encouraged, not the other way around

[Zalugar]

引用自 Luk：

Thinking should be encouraged, not the other way around

That actually brings me back. My parents used to encourage me to read books because it was good mental stimulus, even if they themselves never really did and still don't read. Not practicing what you preach and whatnot.

They also never really understood video games as educational tools outside of the E for everyone "edutainment" games. They can teach patience, practical application in critical thinking, and even be a bonding experience with your kids. Of course, it depends on the game, and many games—especially 'modernized' ones—will not.

[Darkintent]

I appreciate this game for letting you save whenever you feel like. At least if life gets in the way I can just save the game and go deal with whatever it is I need to deal with. Too many games are built around the idea that the player has infinite free time to deal with trudging to save points. I wish more developers would realize that a good portion of their players are working adults who have to interact with real life.

[Castor Troy]

I do prefer these style of games. They can be frustrating if you get lost or don't know what to do, but they feel much more immersive and satisfying overall.

[BigTinz]

Builds character! Puts hair on your chest and wrinkles on your brain.

Now get off my lawn, insect!

[lukandroll]

引用自 Zalugar：

引用自 Luk：

Thinking should be encouraged, not the other way around

That actually brings me back. My parents used to encourage me to read books because it was good mental stimulus, even if they themselves never really did and still don't read. Not practicing what you preach and whatnot.

They also never really understood video games as educational tools outside of the E for everyone "edutainment" games. They can teach patience, practical application in critical thinking, and even be a bonding experience with your kids. Of course, it depends on the game, and many games—especially 'modernized' ones—will not.

I get what you mean, its hard to read something that you didn't choose, but those children who had the benefit of having their parents full library to choose from, must been really lucky and happy, most writters tell that they had access to books from really early, and than that made a big difference in their lives
But, adolescence is usually the time when most people start to choose their own books, and those were great times indeed

Intelligence is one of those rare things that, the more you use it, the greater it becomes
And some video games actually help you a lot in that regard

[Front Bucket]

LMAO there should be waypoints on the lesser difficulties... but GUESS WHAT, broken... lmao... here we are again

[BigTinz]

The audio logs, and even shodan explicitly tell you what you need to be doing.

This is just poor comprehension skills.

[Javier]

引用自 OneDeadLombax：

Because despite the tortured wishes of man children who can only prove their "worth" and IQ in virtual worlds with no real risk or danger, the average consumer age for video games is 35. Google if you don't believe.

With age comes (or is supposed to come) increased responsibility, an appreciation for the value of time, and less patience for things that don't matter.

One of the things that doesn't matter the most is video games.

A 35-year-old adult with a sex life, job, hobbies, creative pursuits, business and children to raise does not have, or should not have, time and patience for this kind of thing.

They may only have an hour or two per week or month to play games. Thus, spending 3 hours looking for a keycard or that email from a person who doesn't exist that you forgot to read or listen to just so you know what you're supposed to be doing is not something your consumer base is going to have patience for and no interest in buying.

In short: If more games were like this, the video game industry would be doing even worse in sales. "Hand-holding" games are more popular because they get straight to the fun and don't eat up massive amounts of your time.

When I was 15, I would've totally soaked Diablo IV's "lore" in. Now, people I play with get mad at me for skipping cutscenes and not reading all this BS.

Sorry, but I just don't care to sit and listen to the stories, histories, opinions and struggles of people who don't even exist and don't matter for any length of time. At gunpoint, you couldn't force me to even slog through MGS4 at this point.

This is a big reason I’m a fighting game fan. You can get in an out, and once your learn a combo/basics it’s stays with you like riding a bike and you build up from their.

Been playing third strike now for quite some time.

[[ScrN]PooSH]

Where did you find a lot of thinking in SS? A lot of patience, reading, going back and forth, doing "monkey job" - yes. But I cannot remember any task in the game that would challenge my intellect to the limits. Please correct me if I'm wrong (by giving examples).

The lack of waypoints on the map obscures the fact that the game is straightforward and short. To finish the game, you must complete a set of main missions in a strict order: completing one main mission unlocks another; there are no different paths or alternate solutions in the main story. Most of the time, a player is not questioning where to go (it is straightforward from reading or listening to the logs) but how to get there. Because each level is a huge maze of same-looking corridors developed by the "magic" of copy-paste. The pathfinding problem could exist in developers' minds back in 1994. However, it is irrelevant in 2023: when everybody has a smartphone capable of navigating through a city or entire country, it is hard to imagine a future device in 2072 that cannot find paths within one building (space station).

My first playthrough took 26 hours. Half of that I spent on:

• vaporizing junk (individual clicks on each item);
  
• putting junk into a recycle station (esp., due to the 3x3 space restriction);
  
• waiting for coins to fall from the recycle station (it takes about a minute to retrieve 90 coins);
  
• going back to the previous level into a medical station when low on health and supplies;
  
• locating a gun that I dropped a few levels ago (since it didn't fit into the cargo lift due to ridiculously low capacity) after finding a mod or ammo for it;
  
• and last but not least - getting lost in the same-looking hallways.

Now, let's compare the remake of System Shock with its spiritual successor - Prey (2017): despite the latter having "hand-holding" waypoints and objective hints, it provides multiple ways to solve almost any task (including the main story), automates junk and inventory management, allowing the player to enjoy the game instead of performing "monkey job" of repeating trivial routines.


P.S. Don't get me wrong - I like the game, but I cannot deny many design issues.

[The Phasmid]

引用自 ScrNPooSH：

Where did you find a lot of thinking in SS? A lot of patience, reading, going back and forth, doing "monkey job" - yes. But I cannot remember any task in the game that would challenge my intellect to the limits. Please correct me if I'm wrong (by giving examples).

The lack of waypoints on the map obscures the fact that the game is straightforward and short. To finish the game, you must complete a set of main missions in a strict order: completing one main mission unlocks another; there are no different paths or alternate solutions in the main story. Most of the time, a player is not questioning where to go (it is straightforward from reading or listening to the logs) but how to get there. Because each level is a huge maze of same-looking corridors developed by the "magic" of copy-paste. The pathfinding problem could exist in developers' minds back in 1994. However, it is irrelevant in 2023: when everybody has a smartphone capable of navigating through a city or entire country, it is hard to imagine a future device in 2072 that cannot find paths within one building (space station).

My first playthrough took 26 hours. Half of that I spent on:

• vaporizing junk (individual clicks on each item);
  
• putting junk into a recycle station (esp., due to the 3x3 space restriction);
  
• waiting for coins to fall from the recycle station (it takes about a minute to retrieve 90 coins);
  
• going back to the previous level into a medical station when low on health and supplies;
  
• locating a gun that I dropped a few levels ago (since it didn't fit into the cargo lift due to ridiculously low capacity) after finding a mod or ammo for it;
  
• and last but not least - getting lost in the same-looking hallways.

Now, let's compare the remake of System Shock with its spiritual successor - Prey (2017): despite the latter having "hand-holding" waypoints and objective hints, it provides multiple ways to solve almost any task (including the main story), automates junk and inventory management, allowing the player to enjoy the game instead of performing "monkey job" of repeating trivial routines.


P.S. Don't get me wrong - I like the game, but I cannot deny many design issues.

Some good points here. However, I have some discrepancies. Have you ever been on a carrier at sea? It's easy to get lost upon first introduction. Spaces might feel similar despite subtle changes. A smartphone won't help you out there in the middle of nowhere. Send a man into a desert with a smartphone, and you'll likely find the skeletal remains gripping the tech in existential terror.

[Venon]

i know bro call me 951250071

[[ScrN]PooSH]

引用自 The Phasmid：

Some good points here. However, I have some discrepancies. Have you ever been on a carrier at sea? It's easy to get lost upon first introduction. Spaces might feel similar despite subtle changes. A smartphone won't help you out there in the middle of nowhere. Send a man into a desert with a smartphone, and you'll likely find the skeletal remains gripping the tech in existential terror.

There is no internet connection in a desert, so you cannot use online services like Google Maps. However, if you have an offline maps app, GPS + compass on a smartphone can help you to navigate to the closest settlement or oasis unless you run out of battery first.

Navigation on a big ship is impossible, not due to pathfinding but geolocation. GPS does not work in closed areas. However, after solving the geolocation problem in some other way (e.g., putting radio beacons to triangulate the position), pathfinding is a trivial task for modern tech.

Anyway, the geolocation problem is solved in the game: we have a map with our position drawn precisely. When viewing the future from 1994's perspective (before the smartphone era), the lack of pathfinding is understandable - people didn't realize that such a feature could exist back then. However, nowadays, it seems obvious. Today, would you buy a navigator that draws your location on the map but cannot set a route?.. Then why would such a device exist in 2072?..

From the game lore's perspective, SHODAN could block player access to its services (e.g., "SHODAN MAPS"), so the player needs to explore the map for Nav Unit to record it and compose a map. However, once recorded, the inability to calculate a route from A to B sounds illogical even by the lore.

Conclusion

The lack of waypoints/pathfinding and forcing players to memorize map layout do not make System Shock a bad game. It delivers an old-school experience, which is neat in some way. However, I hope my explanation clarifies why such an approach is not mainstream nowadays and is unrelated to the average player IQ.