How did this game review so well?

[Grunkle Nutz]

I have no outlet to discuss this with anyone and find the overwhelming support very strange. Is the dialogue actually tolerable to fans of the game? Does nobody realize that characters blatantly announcing their feelings isn't good writing? I understand that many people felt they could relate to the protagonists, but is that due to the ever-present cosmetic theme of repetition and lack of substance or the familiarity of terms used by the lead characters? I swear that it's impossible to find criticism for this game and I'm worried that if nobody challenges the praise it's receiving we may see more games based around poorly written dialogue and characters that lack depth. I doubt anyone looking for discussion of Night in the Woods is looking to read criticism, but if you happen to feel differently feel free to come call me an idiot for hating on your badly written coming-of-age story

[thisisaudo]

i mean,
it's well reviewed because no one else feels that way

[Grunkle Nutz]

Originally posted by thisisaudo:

gaming would be lucky to have more games like night in the woods.
if it aint your jam, just, go play something else?

I'm not so sure you see where I'm coming from. I love story-driven games, but I find that there is a disconnect between myself and this game that could only be described as a dialect barrier. I should have liked Mae. I should have related to the character as I am also an irresponsible adult with a bad reputation among my hometown, but I didn't. The dialogue offended me with its lack of substance and its poor word choice. I'm not alone in this way of thinking, but there's no point in circlejeking with the same people about why we dislike the game and don't want to see the same mistakes repeated again. I want to have discussions. Sway some people into understanding the game's flaws.

[Grunkle Nutz]

Originally posted by thisisaudo:

i mean,
it's well reviewed because no one else feels that way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CbPs7FP5uI&t=10207s this is a full stream of the game in its entirety. The majority of the comments section offers similar criticism to mine

[Iron_Gears]

Originally posted by Eelitist:

I have no outlet to discuss this with anyone and find the overwhelming support very strange. Is the dialogue actually tolerable to fans of the game? Does nobody realize that characters blatantly announcing their feelings isn't good writing? I understand that many people felt they could relate to the protagonists, but is that due to the ever-present cosmetic theme of repetition and lack of substance or the familiarity of terms used by the lead characters? I swear that it's impossible to find criticism for this game and I'm worried that if nobody challenges the praise it's receiving we may see more games based around poorly written dialogue and characters that lack depth. I doubt anyone looking for discussion of Night in the Woods is looking to read criticism, but if you happen to feel differently feel free to come call me an idiot for hating on your badly written coming-of-age story :hintlord:

Call you an idiot? Why? What good is that gonna do? If you feel like the dialouge is too revealing of the characters emotions, you're pretty spot on. I mean, all of the characters are 2-D cartoon images so that design choice would pretty severly limit their ability to convey emotion through a characters facial expression. Personally I think a lot of these people who like it are able to overlook that because they are interested in the story. I didn't feel like the dialouge was badly written when I actually played it, but if your playthrough just seems too obvious for you then whatever. I'm interested in seeing how you figured out about the games themes of an existential crisis, though, cause clearly there were more blatant hints than I realized. Besides, Good writing is a completely subjective term. Just cause I think that Sarah Jewett's, "The White Heron" is one of the greatest short stories of all time, what? Am I gonna complain when others enjoy something different?

This is a game for the next generation dude, the people growing up right now who need to learn this stuff. It's kind of tailored to their tastes...

[thisisaudo]

Originally posted by Eelitist:

Sway some people into understanding the game's flaws.

a noble pursuit.

you do you, friend. peace.

[Grunkle Nutz]

Originally posted by Iron_Gears:

Originally posted by Eelitist:

I have no outlet to discuss this with anyone and find the overwhelming support very strange. Is the dialogue actually tolerable to fans of the game? Does nobody realize that characters blatantly announcing their feelings isn't good writing? I understand that many people felt they could relate to the protagonists, but is that due to the ever-present cosmetic theme of repetition and lack of substance or the familiarity of terms used by the lead characters? I swear that it's impossible to find criticism for this game and I'm worried that if nobody challenges the praise it's receiving we may see more games based around poorly written dialogue and characters that lack depth. I doubt anyone looking for discussion of Night in the Woods is looking to read criticism, but if you happen to feel differently feel free to come call me an idiot for hating on your badly written coming-of-age story

Call you an idiot? Why? What good is that gonna do? If you feel like the dialouge is too revealing of the characters emotions, you're pretty spot on. I mean, all of the characters are 2-D cartoon images so that design choice would pretty severly limit their ability to convey emotion through a characters facial expression. Personally I think a lot of these people who like it are able to overlook that because they are interested in the story. I didn't feel like the dialouge was badly written when I actually played it, but if your playthrough just seems too obvious for you then whatever. I'm interested in seeing how you figured out about the games themes of an existential crisis, though, cause clearly there were more blatant hints than I realized. Besides, Good writing is a completely subjective term. Just cause I think that Sarah Jewett's, "The White Heron" is one of the greatest short stories of all time, what? Am I gonna complain when others enjoy something different?

This is a game for the next generation dude, the people growing up right now who need to learn this stuff. It's kind of tailored to their tastes...

Let me start off by thanking you for your thoughtful feedback and allow me to say that you're probably right about me not falling into the intended demographic, but I think it's equally fair to say that the characters in Night in the Woods don't represent their ages very well judging by their banter. As I mentioned before, I have an uncanny resemblance to Mae and am somewhat sympathetic to her character but I still came to resent her for the lack of substance in her dialogue and only came to be more disappointed as I noticed other characters had the same habit of 'talking and talking without really saying anything'. My biggest gripe is not with the story or even the characters (though I did find Gregg to be unbearable), but the shallowness of the dialogue due to the bizarre attempts at realism they tried to portray through "relatable" conversations.

Also this is unrelated but my favorite novella is Harlan Ellison's 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream' and I find its portrayal of the main antagonist to be not very intimidating and think it detracts from the story. There's criticism to be had everywhere and it always stems from subjectivity but it is almost always valuable.

[Tux]

You are a spiritually dead, surface level idiot who understands no one and nothing. The empathy and spiritual energy of this narritive is lost upon your human shaped shell. In a more mundane sense, if flew over your head because they say 'like' too much, and the internet says that people who say 'like' are dumb.

[Grunkle Nutz]

Originally posted by Bloodlines:

You are a spiritually dead, surface level idiot who understands no one and nothing. The empathy and spirutal energy of this narritive is lost upon your human shaped shell. In a more mundane sense, if flew over your head because they say 'like' too much.

Pretty weak defense of an extremely weak narrative. Do you honestly think that just because a plot includes ambiguity it somehow makes its poorly written dialogue immune to criticism? You know nothing about me and have only a vague idea of my interests and understandings. Sorry for saying that your dull, anthro dreamscape that connected with you on a deeper level "might not deserve to be critically panned".

[Iron_Gears]

Originally posted by Eelitist:

Originally posted by Iron_Gears:

Call you an idiot? Why? What good is that gonna do? If you feel like the dialouge is too revealing of the characters emotions, you're pretty spot on. I mean, all of the characters are 2-D cartoon images so that design choice would pretty severly limit their ability to convey emotion through a characters facial expression. Personally I think a lot of these people who like it are able to overlook that because they are interested in the story. I didn't feel like the dialouge was badly written when I actually played it, but if your playthrough just seems too obvious for you then whatever. I'm interested in seeing how you figured out about the games themes of an existential crisis, though, cause clearly there were more blatant hints than I realized. Besides, Good writing is a completely subjective term. Just cause I think that Sarah Jewett's, "The White Heron" is one of the greatest short stories of all time, what? Am I gonna complain when others enjoy something different?

This is a game for the next generation dude, the people growing up right now who need to learn this stuff. It's kind of tailored to their tastes...

Let me start off by thanking you for your thoughtful feedback and allow me to say that you're probably right about me not falling into the intended demographic, but I think it's equally fair to say that the characters in Night in the Woods don't represent their ages very well judging by their banter. As I mentioned before, I have an uncanny resemblance to Mae and am somewhat sympathetic to her character but I still came to resent her for the lack of substance in her dialogue and only came to be more disappointed as I noticed other characters had the same habit of 'talking and talking without really saying anything'. My biggest gripe is not with the story or even the characters (though I did find Gregg to be unbearable), but the shallowness of the dialogue due to the bizarre attempts at realism they tried to portray through "relatable" conversations.

Also this is unrelated but my favorite novella is Harlan Ellison's 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream' and I find its portrayal of the main antagonist to be not very intimidating and think it detracts from the story. There's criticism to be had everywhere and it always stems from subjectivity but it is almost always valuable.

That's true. There is criticism (and hopefully most will be contructive like this) everywhere. But I still think your missing my point. Your case about the characters not being representative of real life people of their ages is idealistic at best. Their banter is juvenile in many cases, and I stuggle to find any college age adult who won't fall into this category nowadays if they are comfortable with the people aroud them. The characters are representative of young adults trying to make sense of this world without the resources of a higher education, or in the case of Mae, without the ability or conviction or even the emotional capability to carry out these plans. Who do you think are the individuals who'll notice this game, empathize with their sistation,and play it then?

The lack of substance that you observed in certaint scences, the consistant talking and talking and talking without saying anything meaningful, have you ever read "Waiting for Godot" by Samuel Beckett? (And no this is just me trying to give an example in order to explain the games purpose. Not a claim that this game is as good as that play).

This game is about this existenital crisis that I keep mentioning. Looking at reality as you know it and realizing that in all of your life, there is basically nothing. Nothing. At. All. The "mid-life crisis" is no longer happening in people's mid-lives. It's happening in the sudden thrust the young adults of this generation must face into the real world, consisting of "You use to be able to get a job and a house and a family, Now you are in debt trying to get through college. Trying to escape your small and insignificant town. You just want to die anywhere else, but you can't."

So they shut it all out. This isn't a new phenomenon. Shutting down to the world when you are faced with something that you are afraid of. That not the right anwser to this problem, by god no, not at all, but it must be taught that this isn't the anwser. I mean, there are quite a few choice scences in the game in which the characters will finally lift this protective veil of emotional indifference in order to lay their worries out on you all at once. If you don't feel as though these scences are genuine, then I can't really change that. Cause that only means that you aren't one of the many young adults starting out in the world, where these fears are very real to them. And as such they don't just empathize or relate to the characters. They become devoted to these characters, these shapes, because they are so alike. The only difference here is that these characters are fictional, and as such be forced into opening this veil for the observation and benefit of the player. And once they reach the end, once they are shown how the value of life is create by you, that kind of reassurance is a huge weight of anyone's shoulders.

[Iron_Gears]

Originally posted by Bloodlines:

You are a spiritually dead, surface level idiot who understands no one and nothing. The empathy and spiritual energy of this narritive is lost upon your human shaped shell. In a more mundane sense, if flew over your head because they say 'like' too much, and the internet says that people who say 'like' are dumb.

There's no need to be rude, dude. C'mon now.

[Grunkle Nutz]

Originally posted by Iron_Gears:

Originally posted by Eelitist:

Let me start off by thanking you for your thoughtful feedback and allow me to say that you're probably right about me not falling into the intended demographic, but I think it's equally fair to say that the characters in Night in the Woods don't represent their ages very well judging by their banter. As I mentioned before, I have an uncanny resemblance to Mae and am somewhat sympathetic to her character but I still came to resent her for the lack of substance in her dialogue and only came to be more disappointed as I noticed other characters had the same habit of 'talking and talking without really saying anything'. My biggest gripe is not with the story or even the characters (though I did find Gregg to be unbearable), but the shallowness of the dialogue due to the bizarre attempts at realism they tried to portray through "relatable" conversations.

Also this is unrelated but my favorite novella is Harlan Ellison's 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream' and I find its portrayal of the main antagonist to be not very intimidating and think it detracts from the story. There's criticism to be had everywhere and it always stems from subjectivity but it is almost always valuable.

That's true. There is criticism (and hopefully most will be contructive like this) everywhere. But I still think your missing my point. Your case about the characters not being representative of real life people of their ages is idealistic at best. Their banter is juvenile in many cases, and I stuggle to find any college age adult who won't fall into this category nowadays if they are comfortable with the people aroudn them. The characters are representative of young adults trying to make sense of this world without the resources of a higher education, or in the case of Mae, without the ability or conviction or even the emotional capability to carry out these plans. Who do you think are the individuals who'll notice this game and play it then?

The lack of substance that you see, the consistant talking and talking and talking without saying anything meaningful, have you ever read "Waiting for Godot" by Samuel Beckett? (And no this is just me trying to give an example in order to explain the games purpose. Not a claim that this game is as good as that play).

This game is about this existenital crisis that I keep mentioning. Looking at reality as you knew it and realizing that in all of your life, there is basically nothing. Nothing. At. All. The "mid-life crisis" is no longer happening in people's mid-lives. It's happening in the sudden thrust the young adults of this generation must face into the real world, consisting of "You use to be able to get a job and a house and a family, Now you are in debt trying to get through college. Trying to escape your small and insignificant town. You just want to die anywhere else, but you can't."

So they shut it all out. This isn't a new phenomenon. Shutting down to the world when you are faced with something that you are afraid of. That no the anwser, by god no, not at all, but it must be taught that this isn't the anwser. I mean, there are quite a few choice scences in the game in which the characters will finally lift this protective veil of emotional indifference in order to lay their worries out on you all at once. If you don't feel as though these scences are genuine, then I can't really change that. Cause that only means that you aren't one of the many young adults starting out in the world, where these fears are very real to them. And as such they don't just empathize or relate to the characters. They become devoted to these characters, these shapes, because they are saying everything that is already in their heads and act the exact same way. And once they reach the end, once they are shown how the value of life is create by you, that kind of reassurance is hard to take, and not become thankful in the process.

I feel like I need to point out that my original statement "the endless, droning dialogue is a real slog blah blah blah" is moreso about pointing out that it's very difficult to not be put off by the dialect used by lead characters for those that fall outside of the demographic. While this is a relatively moot point, I find that it perfectly sums up my question. Why did a game with such a greater point resonate with the common man so well? How were reviewers able to breach through dialogue that - for lack of a better word - pandered to a demographic they likely fell outside of?
I find it interesting that you took what you did from the game and from what you describe it sounds like a very positive experience, but as a young adult who is on the brink of starting his own life, I feel that the experiences I had in my youth forced me to adapt to the "real world" earlier than most and I truly cannot sympathize with the disassociative behaviors that the NiTW gang demonstrates. I felt everything then. I still feel everything now. Perhaps those that feel disillusioned with society by the time they've reached that age don't truly know how blessed they are. Maybe I can't say anything valid about the themes that I couldn't relate to because my uncommon experiences are so ingrained into my mind. Regardless, I feel as though my experience clearly just wasn't the same and it never could be. You've provided me with plenty of insight as to the common census of this game and I'm glad someone could offer me their reasoning as to why they liked it. Thank you.

[signalmax]

You're really coming across with the idea that because you personally don't like the game it means that it is objectively terrible. People are allowed to have opinions on something and no game is flawless. But just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean that other people are no longer allowed to like it either. A lot of people enjoyed the game, you didn't, who cares.

I'm not saying that the game is perfect and that it doesn't have any shortcomings. But I just don't see why you not enjoying it means that it will be a terrible experience for everyone, because the aformentioned praise and adoration for this game is clear evidence to the contrary.

[Grunkle Nutz]

Originally posted by signalmax:

You're really coming across with the idea that because you personally don't like the game it means that it is objectively terrible. People are allowed to have opinions on something and no game is flawless. But just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean that other people are no longer allowed to like it either. A lot of people enjoyed the game, you didn't, who cares.

I'm not saying that the game is perfect and that it doesn't have any shortcomings. But I just don't see why you not enjoying it means that it will be a terrible experience for everyone, because the aformentioned praise and adoration for this game is clear evidence to the contrary.

If you'd actually read what I'd wrote you'd see that I've been demonstrating nothing but humility and an earnest desire to understand why people hold the game in such high regard. There is no objectivity in my posts and everything I've stated is mere opinion as well as not meant to attack or discredit the game in any way but simply to offer criticism. I do find it a bit strange that you're telling me my opinion doesn't matter by telling me that people are allowed to have opinions?

[Nonpondo]

i think i might be able to explain this? so the dialogue is written in a very specific way that appeals to a certain group of people, a majority of which have found this game through social media or through its art. The art also plays a big part in its perception, i think a lot of people can be blinded by anything if they are infatuated with one facet of a subject, while watching that dingdong stream did give me a new set of eyes to view the game from, i feel he was a bit pessimistic giving a lifeless reading to all the dialogue making the text seem worse than it really is. The dialogue i found to be fine at a first glance, but after looking more into it, i think they would have benefitted from having an additional writer for the game to edit and give some ideas back to change some of the awkwardness? this is mostly speculation from what ive seen around and my opinions, while i did like the game, it was mostly for the art, the dialogue was iffy for me, i didnt mind it, but i can DEFINITLEY see how it would get on someone's nerves

[tomiokajen]

I have no idea how you could think that the characters lack depth. Were you so disgusted with the dialect used by the characters that you missed what they were saying? Bea sacrificed her dreams to take over her family's company after her mom's passing. Angus suffered child abuse. Gregg goes through bouts of severe mood swings and self-doubt (this is revealed in one specific hang-out day, which you could have missed since it sounds like you avoided him at all costs). All these characters are trying to figure out the best way to shape their lives in light of these experiences.


Personally, I found the dialogue to be refreshingly realistic. Perhaps your idea of good writing is that which is focused on informing the reader and progressing the story. This game encourages world exploration, so naturally a lot of conversations aren't going to necessarily contribute to the plot, or even be intelligent, but I'd argue that they give the reader a sense of the community. I found it very immersive: a rather effective simulation of the small town experience, seeing the same people all the time, and talking about nothing in particular.

I've met plenty of people who are uncomfortably vocal with their feelings when they're in the moment. It's unclear to me why you consider that poor writing. Perhaps it feels like a cop out to you, but the way sentences were phrased felt very natural to me. When people speak, it's often not in perfectly structured sentences. Traditionally, sentences are trimmed and carefully worded in scripts to provide the reader with clarity and understanding, so maybe you're using that standard to judge the quality of the dialogue?


I will say that the plot itself fell short for me. It got a little muddled and vague during the climax, and I still felt confused by the supernatural stuff by the end. If you take issue with that, I'd say I agree with you. But I found the world itself to be immersive, and character interactions felt solid in my opinion. Additionally, the game brings to light not just coming-of-age issues, but also the struggles faced by small towns built on an industry that's no longer profitable or relevant. Small inclusions like a 60-year-old's resume left on the library computer, Mae's dad's constant comments on his past and present working conditions, Selmers' poem given at the Poets Club, were all great thematic details weaved between Mae's personal crisis.


This got long (whoops), but I hope it maybe helped you understand the hype a little better.