Lets talk about socialism.

[Sylvester]

I am not trying to be abrasive here. I am genuinely asking some real socialists to explain some things to me. There are some obvious socialists and anti-capitalist undertones to this game. I have also seen it discussed here a little bit. I have my pre-conceived ideas of what socialism entails, but I understand that my understanding may be faulty. So I guess I am asking some of you real socialists to tell me from your perspective how socialism is intended to work. I am open to listening to points of view that are contrary to what I have come to believe. So I guess this is your chance to convince me?


I guess a good place to start is this:
https://curiouscat.me/bombsfall/post/111281647

It is a post, one of the creators of the game defends the fact that they are a socialists but at the same time are selling their game despite the fact. I understand and agree with what they say about needing to survive in the system. They mention that they live in a kind of society where they unfortunately have to sell their labors in order to survive. They mention that they "have" to pay for their health care, education, and rent. I guess i'm asking: does this creator wish for a society where all they have to do is make their art but not need to sell it because all their other expenses are paid for?

The first hurdle I am having trouble overcoming is this. How can a society function where everyone does "what they want" and all their expenses are paid for. Will this not devolve into people migrating away from "productive" jobs to jobs that produce no tangible resources or even to no jobs at all? And won't THAT devolve into forced labor?

Again, not trying to be abrasive here. I am asking for the wisdom of real socialists. Is there a piece to this puzzle I do not understand? Am I misunderstanding something about socialism? Thanks for the time!

[Wendigo Psychosis]

Lets become Anarchist, it's more fun ;)

[CtenosaurOaxacana]

People can contribute more to society if they are free to do what they love to do.
And yes, some people do actually enjoy those 'boring' jobs, due to various personal or mental quirks: people who love to organize can actually enjoy inventory management, for example.

This is an ideal of socialism, and is not possible in capitalist society,
where we must do whatever is necessary to earn money.
If education and health were universal, the benefits would greatly improve the society.

As technology evolves, human employment will continue to decline. Socialism seems better prepared for such a future, when people can make their lives and the world better, by being who they want to be.

My thoughts on the matter, anyway.

[Meow-Meow Power]

I don't think you will find a "real socialist" on internet, at least not alive or "real" in a strict sence Of the word.
Socialism and capitalism have the same ultimate goal, make society a better place uit with diferents methods.
If you want to even start to understand socialism way to ser the word and the problem Of what a main wants, you have to read alot to get context.
Too bad muy english is not good enough to contribute more to this discution

[Benji, limited edition shitlord]

Ehhh socialism never worked out - it might be great on paper, but reality just doesn't bend over backwards to make it work. This article lists five reasons why it doesn't or won't work -
https://quillpigz.wordpress.com/2015/08/26/5-quick-reasons-why-socialism-fails/
To put it short:
5. High Tax Rates - tax the rich. Rich leave the country, nobody to pay for 'free' stuff.
4. Victim Mentality - 'rich people are evil, mmk?' (see pt. 4)
3. Subsidises Failure, Punishes Success - ie welfare programs for fat people
2. Economic Calculation Problem - you can't have one central planned economy, that just doesn't work. You need feedback on what works and what does not.
1. Leads to Tyranny - it just gives too much power to the state, and power corrupts.

[Sylvester]

@Velox But here is the issue I am seeing with people doing what they love to do. When given the option between a less or more strenuous job, people will always choose the less, especially if the job is not necessarily their cup of tea or if there are no extra benefits for doing the harder jobs. This then would create a shortage of productivity in some jobs that NEED to get done.

[thisisaudo]

I mean the idea behind things like a Universal Basic Income, for example, is that it is enough to cover basic necessities (rent, food, etc) but would not be enough that someone living just on Basic Income could just like do whatever they want. So in that way, people would still have jobs in order to make money for other things in life they'd want, luxuries, entertainment, car stuff, vacations, trips etc. It's basically to ensure that everyone can live, and have a safety net, but it wouldn't really be the "end of work" it would be the end of dying from lack of available work, ideally.

[Q]

Isn't the thing about socialism is that it is impossible that it would work well at all?

[thisisaudo]

it should also be noted that what most people these days support is not socialism but "democratic socialism".

[clowdy]

First up, I think you are misunderstanding Socialism. Very broadly defined Socialism just means that the whole of society (usually represented by the state) controls the "means of production" (factories, agriculture, and basically any form of capital). Socialism doesn't actually mean that everyone can do what they want and have all expenses paid for. It just means that decisions about how the economy runs are made collectively (again, realistically this means its done by the state). The best argument against Socialism is basically that markets are an efficient means of distributing goods that works out best for more people. Most would argue history reinforces this claim, though others would dispute that. I should also note that there is something called market socialism in which private firms compete in a market, but those businesses are owned and controlled by workers at those firms.

However, when most people talk about socialism in America they aren't actually talking about any of that. Rather, what they are talking about is Social Democracy (Democratic Socialism is often used as an interchangeable term for this). Social Democracy basically describes a Capitalist economy with markets and private businesses where the government provides robust social services funded through taxes. If that sounds like the way things are currently then that's because it is, America and every other developed country is some form of Social Democracy. The real economic debate is just to what DEGREE we should be a social democracy. What should the government provide and what should be left up to markets. Healthcare? Education? Defense? How much should we tax people and how much should we spend, and spend it on what?

When the creators of this game are talking about politics these issues are they are talking about. Basically, they are not advocating for total Socialism, they are just arguing that the government should do MORE to help people than it currently is. Providing healthcare for everyone would be an ideal example of that. I doubt they are trying to abolish Capitlism, but rather trying to get the government to mitigate the problems inherent in Capitlism.

As for characters in the game, I think they are a reflection of political realities. Most of the referneces to "Socialism" and "Fascism" in the game are tounge-in-cheek. However, you are right, there are definitely leftist undertones. This is meant to reflect small town rust belt politics. The main characters are all economically left because young people (especially in the midwest) voted overwhelmingly for Bernie Sanders and support liberal economic policies. The older generation articulates it in a different, usually more populist (think Trump) way, but they are still concerned about the same issues.

In summary: The game is not advocating for traditional Socialism. The creators likely believe in contemporary American economic liberalism. The game advocates these principles because it is about young people living in the rust belt, which in reality overwhelmingly support economically liberal principles. These principles are often called Socialism by both supporters and detractors, but in reality are very far from actual Socialism.

[Q]

So yeah it wouldn't work.

[clowdy]

I mean it's more complicated than that. I'm not a Socialist but its not like it's as simple as it just not being feasible (like, say, Anarchism). One of the worlds two super powers for much of the 20th century was Socialist. I think Capitalism works better, a lot better, as long as you have the government intervene to correct market failures, but it's not as though command economies are impossible, they still exist.

[Q]

IMO it feels as possible as anarchy TBH fam. Although I guess it's possible. Inefficient and stupid tho.

[Cocyx The Gay Skeleton]

Socialism is good, to me

[ULTRA]

Originally posted by Zandooma:

I am not trying to be abrasive here. I am genuinely asking some real socialists to explain some things to me. There are some obvious socialists and anti-capitalist undertones to this game. I have also seen it discussed here a little bit. I have my pre-conceived ideas of what socialism entails, but I understand that my understanding may be faulty. So I guess I am asking some of you real socialists to tell me from your perspective how socialism is intended to work. I am open to listening to points of view that are contrary to what I have come to believe. So I guess this is your chance to convince me?


I guess a good place to start is this:
https://curiouscat.me/bombsfall/post/111281647

It is a post, one of the creators of the game defends the fact that they are a socialists but at the same time are selling their game despite the fact. I understand and agree with what they say about needing to survive in the system. They mention that they live in a kind of society where they unfortunately have to sell their labors in order to survive. They mention that they "have" to pay for their health care, education, and rent. I guess i'm asking: does this creator wish for a society where all they have to do is make their art but not need to sell it because all their other expenses are paid for?

The first hurdle I am having trouble overcoming is this. How can a society function where everyone does "what they want" and all their expenses are paid for. Will this not devolve into people migrating away from "productive" jobs to jobs that produce no tangible resources or even to no jobs at all? And won't THAT devolve into forced labor?

Again, not trying to be abrasive here. I am asking for the wisdom of real socialists. Is there a piece to this puzzle I do not understand? Am I misunderstanding something about socialism? Thanks for the time!

Have you considered perusing the Wikipedia article or a microeconomics textbook first before consulting the Steam forums about what socialism is? Or you could just think about it for a second. It's like you believe life was impossible before capitalism was formalized.